Hello , finally have my new ( should l say my wife's new ) toy , a May 26 1926 Tudor.
I have been cutting and polishing today and checking bands ect , ect, and while digging about under the trans cover, l found these numbers under the front of the drivers seat HP 2424 , it appears way to small to be a body number which l would assume should be somewhere in the 13million range.The car has spent its entire life in and around Michigan if this helps.
Has any one any ideas as to what they could refer to ?
A few pics attached , the car has been tracked back to the original owners , me ( my wife ) being either the 7th 8th or 9 th owners, the latter part is harder to get the answer to than the magazine article ( T times nov/dec 1982 ).
A few of pics.
"Please excuse the mess"
Thanks in advance for any help on the numbers
Cheers David Dare
PS- l've driven it and YUP ! it needs a better head system, Chev or Z ...... Hmmmmm decisions !
I believe that this is the serial number of the body. The HP refers to Highland Park plant. I've seen a 25 Fordor which also had a body serial number with the HP and several other bodies that have other markings which matched the initials of branch plants. It seems that some bodies have them and some don't. The number is only a body serial number and has no relation to the engine number.
OK the highland park part makes sense , but that could mean that more than one car will have over time the same body numbers, but different engine numbers ?????
Looking at the clearance behind the head, will a 28 chev head fit in there without modification to the firewall ?
1. Congratulations on your new “Improved Ford” it looks really nice. I suspect you notice quite a difference in the acceleration between your lighter weight 1913 roadster and your heavier 1926 Tudor. The 1913 stock engine had a little more power than the stock 1926 engine. But the 1913 roadster shipping weight would have been less than 1200 pounds (ref page 141 Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” all future page numbers are to his same book and of course his on-line encyclopedia at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1913.htm ) while the 1926 Tudor had a shipping weight of 1972 pounds (ref page 370). For the heavier cars a higher compression head and Stipe cam would be something to consider. The technical page at the Tulsa Model T Club at: http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=mtfctulsa has several excellent articles on how the head, cam, rear axle ratio, weight, and type of hills you drive in all impact the performance of the car. Sometimes it as simple as saying “I’ll haul the kids up the mountain and let the three 185 pound adults ride in someone else’s touring. Ref your question about clearance for the 1928 Chevy head and the 1926 Tudor firewall. Recommend you contact Tim at: http://gen3antiqueauto.com/GreenThunderbolt.htm with that question. If you scroll down you can see a picture of the Chevy head in his Fordor. Also from one of the previous posting you can see that the Chevy head is just a little shorter than the T block (or it looks that way to me in the picture) see the second photo down at: http://gen3antiqueauto.com/model_t_parts.htm .
2. Dave Sosnoski could easily be correct about the HP 2424 number you found on the metal front cross sill of your 1926 Tudor body. It just may be “the serial number of the body.” I have not been able to locate enough “data points” on the 1919 – 1927 Model Ts to really be able to even state a good theory. But I have a hunch (not enough data for a theory yet) that it MIGHT be related more to the Assembly Plant number than the body serial number. I’m sure this mystery will make the news soon, and Model T owners everywhere will be checking and sending in information. But until then, if anyone has access to a 1926-27 Model T Ford, would you please check the top side of the metal sills that hold up the front floor boards? If you find some numbers and/or letters there please post them (and if it is a long time later – please e-mail me that you posted so I will be sure to read it) that information along with the body style and year/month of the car and if any history is known (such as David’s car always being in the Michigan area until recently).
3. If anyone has access to article about the 15,000,000 Ford with the great pictures --- would they please look back through it and see if it has anything about HP or other numbers stamped into the metal channels that hold up the front floorboards? And if anyone is near the “Henry Ford” if they could obtain permission to look at the tops of the body sills holding up the front floorboards – it may or may not add some information. But it is one of the best documented Fords and did start life at the Highland Park plant. (Yes, I have the issue with the 15,000,000 Ford in it, no I don’t know which box I put it in. That reminds me, I wonder if after the daughter finishes school if I can have her room to put file cabinets and book shelves in?)
4. Why I have a hunch the HP 2424 may be something other than a body serial number?
4.a.. The earlier open bodies (roadsters, runabouts, tourings) 1906-1918 were made by several different manufactures. I believe the body maker/manufacture used the serial numbers to help in keeping track of inventory produced, sold, payments, etc. (I stopped at 1918 because my information on actual body numbers is very sketchy from 1919 onward). For the open body cars I do not know of any body numbers on the USA high cowl 1924 model (introduced late 1923) and later cars. Ford stopped purchasing open car bodies from outside suppliers and produced his own. I don’t think Ford used body numbers to keep track how many bodies were made and/or shipped. I know for the 1928-1931 Model A Fords – the bodies that had body tags (see one sample at: http://www.abarnyard.com/fordor/patent.htm ) with numbers stamped into them were produced by outside body makers. To my knowledge there were no body numbers on the roadsters or tourings but primarily on the Fordor Sedans and a few other closed bodies produced by outside makers. The Tudors and Coupes (except for a few Briggs produced coupes) were made by Ford and did not have a body number or body number tag. While the Ford produced Model A bodies did not have a body tag number all the Model USA Model As often did have an Assembly Plant number stamped into the metal sills that held up the large lower front floor board. (For Model A Ford Assembly Plant code numbers see paragraph 4.c. below.)
4.b. The HP 2424 if it is a body serial number is an extremely low number. David, I don’t think (ok GUESS) any Model T Ford body number would be in the 13 million range. As Dave Sosnoski said the body serial numbers are not related directly to the car number. I do believe there is some relationship between the body numbers and the time the car was assembled. That is clearly demonstrated for the body numbers in the 1914-1918 time frame when the month and year the body was produced is part of the body number. In general the body was produces with in a month or two of the time the engine was produced. There are some exceptions (imagine that) but typically they appear to be close to the same time frame on the 1914-1918 open cars.
4.c. The 1928-31 Model A Folks have made a lot more progress in correlating the Branch Assembly numbers as well as the body style serial numbers than we have on the Model Ts. But the Model A was not assembled at the Highland Park plant but rather assembled at the Rouge plant. (And the T was not assembled at the Rouge). So the excellent listing of Model A Ford Assembly Plant codes at: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Technical/Assembly%20Plants%20Body%20Number.pdf does not contain a letter or letters for the Highland Park plant. Note it does share that “F” was used for the Rouge. I’m hoping that we can find additional support for the “HP” standing for Highland Park. But even if it does stand for Highland Park that still begs the question what in the world is the 2424 represent? Side note the Model T to Model A assembly plants are not a direct one-for-one as some of the assembly plants changed just as the Highland Park Model T production changed to the Model A River Rouge production. That also happened for the Ford plant in Philadelphia which closed after 10 years of producing the Model Ts and was replaced by a new plant that opened up nearby at Chester Pennsylvania to produce the new Model A. If anyone knows of other Model T assembly plants that closed at the end of the Model T production and were replaced by a newer plant for the Model A, please let us know.
5. We would welcome any additional numbers, comments, corrections, etc.
Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
Thanks Hap, l'm a little clearer in the number now, l thinks !
I guess l am interested to know if anyone else has HP2424 on their panel as well ?
Thanks and cheers David Dare orstrayleeeeya.
Hap , now thats a close fit in a 26/27., with the chev head.
I have an HP number in my 26 Tudor as well. When I get back over to the car in the next few days I will make note of the number and post it here.
Nice looking 66 t-bird sitting next to your T. Was it sold new in MI? I don't see the fender mounted turn sig indicators on it and I believe in MI fender mounted sig indicators for the driver were illegal.
Thanks Hap for all of your trouble in assisting in locating a reason for the number , also thanks to Tom for his input, and Bill , the 66 T'bird , East California car , lived its entire life on the other side of the Sierra's , except when travelled down into LA or SF.
Yep it has the external indicator "bullets" damn hard to get used to looking out there instead of down on the dash !!
Its not finished yet, a few internal vacuum thingy's and a nice paint job will see that finally finished, one day............one day.
Cheers David Aust.
Keep those odd body numbers coming in