That is simple symbolism over substance. They can't get enough money out of that collection to make a dent into what they need to do. They are attempting to fool our Congress to bail them out. They parked their corporate jets and that didn't do it and so they are trying this. They wouldn't get enough money even if they sold their family jewels.
The fix is to re-organize, start with a clean slate, and do it right this time. The bubble has burst and they can't put it back together again. I hear that GM will trash Buick and Pontiac and only sell Chevy, Saturn and Cadillac. G M trucks will continue. Ford will stop building Mercury vehicles and bring more things in from Europe. Chrysler will cancel Dodge and Dodge trucks may become Jeeps. The only thing stopping the soup kitchens from re-opening is the law at this time.
Great. The makings of another fine thread that everyone will be proud of. Congratulations to both of you.
I don't know about the rest of it, but Frank is right on one point for sure. Selling these cars is little more than symbolic. It makes good press, but the proceeds will be negligible in the context of shortfalls that measure in the hundreds of billions.
Frank - Seems like it would make sense for GM to quit building/selling Chevrolet trucks, when GMC's are the same basic truck, and a pretty good GMC dealership network exists. In the case of Dodge, it seems like their pickups are one of the few "hot" (comparatively) sellers, and Jeep (Cherokee types) have been dying a slow death for years. Actually, in recent years, pickup trucks have probably been the most successful thing for GM & Chrysler and I would think that no matter what happens, the American pickup truck will probably survive. Ford trucks too, but then as sick as the whole U.S. auto industry is, Ford seems to be the healthiest. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out! It is interesting to watch, and even to look back and see what has been developing for years. You mentioned that Ford will be "bringing more things from Europe" Frank; you might have said "Asia" too, because Ford has been "holding hands" with Mazda for years. Also, I guess it should have been obvious to see where the U.S. auto industry was headed with the demise of Plymouth and Oldsmobile, and frankly, I would have thought that Mercury would have "died" by now too. Pretty sad situation, huh? Also, I think you're absolutely right Frank; this GM sale of 250 cars from their collection is just part of their "act" in an attempt to get as big a piece of the bailout pie as possible. Again, what a sad situation. I'll bet a lot of old guys like me will remember when it used to be said that, "how General Motors goes, so goes the U.S. Economy". Pretty scary, huh?
"Great. The makings of another fine thread that everyone will be proud of. Congratulations to both of you."
Hey Seth, don't start with me. I just posted the link about collector cars being sold by GM.
End of Story.
BTW, If you think I'm mad, your damn right!
An old man explained business investment and profit and losses to me many years ago and I will reprint it here and now. We are all allowed to go into business if we care to gamble. So if we decide to open a restaurant and sell only sauerkraut and molasses sandwiches we are allowed to do so. If we only want to have our restaurant open from 11:00 o'clock at night and wish to close up at 4:00 AM it is legal. We must pay our employees and all of the overhead and we have the right to go broke because we made bad decisions.
Seth - Got up on the wrong side of the bed today? Sorry you're not feeling well. Might be that right now isn't the best time for you to post anything on the forum. Hope you feel better later. I recall a very well worded apology that you felt the need to post recently due to your choice of words in a previous post, and I certainly respected you for doing that. I think it's good to choose words carefully; life's too short for controversy.
The auto workers should just clean house themselves, and get rid of the moronic rich boys in charge instead of getting rid of things that can never be replaced! I agree, its just another way to cry poverty.
I find it sickening that we live in a time where these people exemplify their lousy upbringings so willingly for everyone else to see and have to deal with,.... "screw the compny, its all about ME!"
Just like the wonderful wall st. bail out,... one of the very first things those wonderful CEO's and big shots did was to reward each other with bonuses! Reward stupidity, and everyone is a star and gets a trophy! No one can do any wrong
Then around every corner the average Joe sulks and says, "well, that's just the way it is, what can ya do??..."
That same guy can go find a nice thick, sturdy piece of hickory and attach it to the part of their spine that needs stiffening! How bad does it have to get before the common man wipes the sleep from his eyes and acts instead of staring in wonder?
I'm glad I was raised the way my grandparents and great-grandparents were raised! Far from our modernistic norms of today!
"Seth - Got up on the wrong side of the bed today? "
Hehehe...sorry Seth, but I gotta laugh at that one! Find something in your Cheerios that didn't belong there?
I'd be willing to bet that the sale of all 250 cars wouldn't begin to cover the CEO's bonus for the year.
I would take the 1906(?) Cadillac Coupe' on the right. There are only 2 or 3 authentic ones left.
If I had a bucket with a leak I would fix the hole and not keep pouring water into it until it was fixed.
Not sure where your going. I don't like the idea of posting a thread about over 200 cars being released to the public, and then some accusation about starting a thread that is not good for this forum.
Still damn mad.
US car makers took the State of California to court over the introduction of mandatory fuel efficiency targets... idiots!
They simply wanted to build -trucks- for people to commute and get groceries with. In a world of finite resources this is inexcusable.
In the same way as I am told GM, Standard Oil and Firestone formed a company in the 1930's. Purpose was to buy out & close down tramways so they could replace them with bus lines and private cars.
Look at Portland, Oregon... compare it to Atlanta Georgia and tell me tht investing in public transport is not the way of the future, and past as it happens. Give the money to public infrastructure and let the car companies sink or swim.
The US auto industry is reaping what it has sown.
That's how it should be!
I don't have any idea how many cars B-J runs across the block each year, but seems like one batch of 250 is pretty big, especially in this scary economy.
The collection spokesman saying these are just the culls doesn't exactly add to the mystique of them coming from GM ownership. Unless they sell without reserve, I would expect maybe half of them will be going back to GM.
The Barrett Jackson Scottsdale auction this week is entirely no reserve. All cars will be sold.
My prediction on the Pontiac Aztek serial #1 is $9500.
Sorry, I misunderstood, however I think you are referring to GM selling cars reference their red ink.
If I had the bucks and if the EV-1 Electric car was part of the collection, I would bid on that puppy! It was a car that was successful, the people that leased them loved them, (G.M. would not allow anyone to actually purchase them),and for an electric car, it actually looked good. If anyone wants to watch an educational documentary movie, see Who Killed the Electric Car.
I wonder why it is not dusted off and brought back now, instead of the other offering GM is going to bring out?
Actually the mockumentary "Who killed the electric Car" is full of outright lies and half truths. For example it claims that an electric car could have been viable pre - 1920, which is utter hogwash.
Also, Generic Motors lost hundreds of millions of dollars on the EV-1 in spite of massive government subsidies. The EV-1 car is utterly unsuitable for enough consumers that it could have ever ever been a profitable product.
Jay drives his Baker electric car everywhere, moves right along and seems very reliable.
Hope this isn't the "makings of another fine thread"
Rob "not as mad as I was"
The problems with electric cars in the era of the Model T were basic infrastructure issues. At that time around 80 percent of Americans lived outside city limits. There was no electricity outside cities.
The batteries of the era were heavy and inefficient. Since there were no paved roads, even within most cities, electric cars were limited to small metropolitan areas. The electric cars are heavy and underpowered for their weight, and sink in mud that a Model T easily drives through.
Even within cities, there were problems using the available power grids because many cities had competing electric systems. For example, Westinghouse systems were 120 or 240 volts AC, while Edison used DC systems that had various voltages available depending how far you were from the power generation station. The problem with the electric car was that it needed a unique charger for the charging power available.
Biggest problem with the electric car is lack of useful range. These Baker / Raush & Lang, Detroit Electrics etc had maybe 25 miles of range with a fresh charge on a new set of batteries on a warm day. If it was cold, or the batteries were a year or two old, range was even less.
The GM EV-1 experiment proved conclusively that GM could not make a profit selling electric vehicles. Heck, GM can't make a profit selling anything else either.
"Biggest problem with the electric car is lack of useful range."
Agreed! I find the ranges of 100 miles (claimed by some) suspect anyway. Wind has a large effect and also, when I cummute it is dark which means the lights are pulling power. Add to that cold weather requiring heat (or hot weather requiring A/C) and wipers to control rain and I bet a new completely electric car would be hard pressed to get 50 miles away from an extention cord.
Since this thread has already de-generated:
The Chevy Volt is advertised to go 40 miles before the little engine/generator has to start. . Some progress.
Some or all of the early electrics used Edison batteries, which were different from the common lead-acid battery, but I don't know if they were better.
Only gasoline comes close to the energy stored in a gallon of diesel, when you consider the size and weight of the total system. For every pound of battery or other energy storage system, you have to add three pounds of support in terms of tires, brakes, structure, etc. . It's hard to find the numbers, but hybrids appear to weigh 3-500 pounds more than their gasoline equivalent.
True, the electric powered car was rendered obsolete when the curved dash Oldsmobile was introduced. It was cheaper than any electric car, more reliable, easier to maintain, and had better range.
Even today any electric vehicle is wildy impractical and simply not competitive on an economic basis.
The Chevy Volt will be the first serious non - Japanese technology hybrid. It will be interesting to see how it fares being such a late entry into the game. On the horizon are Japanese and European diesel electric hybrids that will get 60 - 70 MPG in city driving which will change the game again.
The final nail in the coffin for the electric car, was the self starter. A self starter made the gasoline car easier to start, and greater appeal to electric buyers.
Note on my morphing thread (that went astray quickly). We own a Toyota Prius (and Chevy P/U, Yukon, and Volvo, and a slew of "old Fords") and I routinely get 45 miles per gallon. When I city drive, the mileage is actually a little better, and when I'm on a 55 to 60 mile per hour road, I'll average just over 50 mpg.
Also, there is an aftermarket battery that allows Prius owners to "plug in" and then have about a 40 or 50 mile charge before the gas engine is required. However, when I looked at an ad for the battery, it cost around $10,000, so I didn't pursue it any longer.
Anything else we should talk about ?
30 years ago the diesel Rabbit got 40-50 mpg, so again, where's the progress?
For a different perspective:
40 mpg is about 2 1/2 ounces gas per mile.
50 mpg is about 2 ounces gas per mile.
I fear the Chevy Volt will be another loser, which they don't need. . Maybe it will bring in buyers for profitable cars, you can at least hope. I want Bud to keep his pension.
The diesel Rabbit got 40 or so MPG highway. It got 30 MPG city. It was a miserable, noisey, cramped, slow car.
The Prius gets 50 MPG city. It gets 40 MPG highway. It is a luxurious, quiet, roomy pleasant fun to drive car.
By the way, the new turbo diesel Volkswagen gets around 60 MPG highway.
Beg to differ. My 1980 diesel Rabbit did get 50 mpg highway and 40 mpg city. It was comfortable and roomy enough for two adults. It was noisy and had a hard time getting past 70 mph. But with high fuel costs, these were small distractions.
I recall the VW Passat TDI was rated over 60 mpg highway several years ago. At that rate, the smell and smoke were minimal (considering diesel pickups get anywhere from 8 to 18 mpg). However, the cars never really seemed to catch on in the US.
Hard to belive i agree with Royce said about the old Rabbit Diesel! I also agree with RD as i want to keep my pension but i have not lost any money on my GM stock but thats only because i have not sold any!Battery vehicles but they will need infrastrecture and rethinking from automakers?? El cars should be standardized and OUICK CHANGE battery packs could be stocked in service centers with a 2 minute change your back on the road.Its easy and industry has been using this for fork lifts,small trucks,scooters,and almost anything used inside/outside plants many years.If we live long enough we will see most of everything we have seen go around again! 60Min last night told what and who caused most of the high price of oil and maby their wrecking of the Ecomony!!?? On top of this we are blessed with some who say it is all the UAW's/working persons fault!!?? The times they are a changing and maby when the TRUE FACTS are TOLD i hope They Are Held Accountable!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bud.
Even back when diesel was cheaper than gas, it had to be a big vehicle for the fuel savings to pay for the added base price. . There is no money to be saved by buying either a diesel or a hybrid today, due to their extra cost.
Back when, diesel engines lasted much longer than gas engines. . Maybe they still do, but with gas engines lasting 200K miles, what's to be gained?
Aerodynamic improvements in car design have yielded better fuel economy.. I believe the next logical step is weight reduction. . It won't matter in steady on the level driving, but makes a big difference in stop and go and hills.
RD,I just bought a Fleetgaurd oil filter at 15.84 and figger 16qts of oil it aint cheep! The savings comes when you put it to work! If your haulling enough weight i would guess the fuel efficiency difference to be maby 50% at heavy work?? One thing im shure of though,we will be squeezed again!Bud.
NUCLEAR POWER! that's where it's at! Fuel up once and never worry about fuel again. Want to increase speed...pull the rod out to go faster. Push it in to slow down.
No need for lights because you'll glow in the dark!
To keep with Rob's original thread..Perhaps GM will auction off a few Atom Cars too!
2002 VW Jetta diesel gets 55 mph in general use, 62 on roadtrips at 75 mph. The diesel was a $300 option. At 90 hp stock, it is not a racecar, but $400 later (nozzles and some injection changes) it puts out a VERY torquey 130. Best MODERN car made.
Now if you want mileage you need one of these. A Messerschmitt, made in the early 1950's in Europe when they really didn't have much money or fuel. Seats 2, about the size of an airplane cockpit. There was also a BMW, that seated two people side by side. Pictures from the Deluna private collection. It could really go right under some of the jacked up pickup trucks on the road.
David, the BMW you referred to was the Isetta.
A restored 1957 Isetta just sold at Barrett-Jackson for $45,100
Here is the BMW version (spot the badge):
Think it was made under licence.
(Sorry can't make the picture bigger, but you can see this and other pictures at: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/BMW/Isetta/auction-195731038.htm)
When I was in college, there was a guy with an Isetta. He'd park it at the curb and go inside. He never knew where he was going to find it when he came back out....
Baker Electric dates from 1899 - 1916.
1902 Walter C. Baker drove a 12 hp electric racer covering a mile in 47.0 seconds, and then crashed into the crowd killing two spectators.
I belive Leno's Baker is a 1912 Baker Brougham on a 88" wb. Bevel gear shaft drive.
OT: Baker was not the only American electric motorcar manf.
There were hundreds of others, off the top my head is Buffalo Electric (1901-1915).
Electric Vehicles were popular with women, many were marketed exclusivly to them.
you're right Adrian, the Isetta was made under license in several countries by several different manufacturers, but was actually the product of Enzo Rivolta's company Iso SpA.
According to Wikipedia; "Although the design originated in Italy, it was built in a number of different countries, including Spain, Belgium, France, Brazil, Germany and Britain."
From what I've seen over the years, $57K is fair for a nice restored 57. They are highly sought after, as I found when I got interested in them. I soon lost interest when I saw the price tag on even basketcases.
A couple of years ago I was at a small local car show at which a fellow was displaying a BMW-built Isetta. He said the BMW club wouldn't let him join, because it refused to acknowledge his car as a real Beemer, But he got even. Where the big European front license plate would have been,he had a sign: The Ultimate Driving Machine".
Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ