I have a fan belt-timer interference problem

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: I have a fan belt-timer interference problem
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:18 pm:

I have talked to a couple of people and we have no solutions so far. It is my understanding that the early cars did have a problem with the fan belt running against the timer, and I have that problem with this 1911. The fan belt will spin off the timer cover plate nut and then rubs against the corresponding mounting stud. Even when the upper fan mounting lever is compressed all the way against the spring, thus moving it about 1/4" to the right, the belt still runs against the timer cover stud. Here are two pictures of the interference problem and the upper fan arm.


timer

timer

The bottom pulley is about 2 15/16" in diameter. Is the upper arm original?? I was expecting a forged arm but this one is brass. What is the solution here. I need more clearance. thanx


Ward
Sierra Vista, AZ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:25 pm:

That upper arm should be straight up. That would allow a little more clearance for the belt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Bunner on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:31 pm:

Ward. In my opinion, you need to do a couple of things. 1. Tighten the bracket bolt and definitely put a cotter pin in it so it doesn't back out. 2. I would also look into buying the rubberized belt (neutral color to match leather) to replace a probably (I say probably because I don't know) stretched belt. Todays leather belts are junk; period. Been through many of them and they don't fit right; either to wide, to long, or sewn improperly. IMO.
Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:42 pm:

I am not understanding the arm should be straight up recommendation. If the upper arm was raised, the upper pulley would move to the left, exacerbating the interference.

The bracket bolt is installed for picture taking purposes, I do have the cotter.

I don't mind getting a new belt, but it would also have the same problem. When I sight down the two pulleys, the belt will hit the stud.

Is that upper arm wrong?
Is the crank pulley correct?
What to do?

Ward


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:51 pm:

Here is a different angle on the upper arm and spring if that will help anyone solve the problem

t


Ward


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:58 pm:

I see a few problems. The fan arm seems to be tilted well backwards of where it should be. The belt needs to further FORWARD but that is only part of the problem. Your belt is well back from where it should ride. Part of the problem is that you likely have wrong belt tension. Only if this is a very very early 1911 would it have a spring tightening up the fan belt and the timing cover I see in the picture is NOT the cover that uses the spring anyway if indeed this car should have a fan belt spring as the tigtening device. It would appear you have purchased a repro cover which is OK if used with the correct adjuster bolt. THAT cover on your car was never equipped with a spring unless the camera angle has me fooled or the cover has been modified. I have seen that repro cover before attempted to be used with a spring. Whoever makes it says it can be used either way but they are totally WRONG. I think they are attempting to widen the market for it by claiming it can be used on really early cars by sliding a spring over a cutoff threaded stud that is supplied with the cover which is what I think you have - FORD NEVER DID THAT. The CORRECT cover that uses the spring has a 5/8" diameter WELL that is cast into the front cover at the location of the threaded boss and the spring sits down into that well - NOT over a stud. The bottom of the cast in well is rounded and blends into the front of the cover and is not drilled through. What you have is the cover that is one vintage after that and THAT cover never used the spring regardless of what somebody told you. Before you change anything - what is the motor number on this car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern Ca. on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:04 pm:

Ward. you can get a "GATES" seamless belt for your T at "Autozone". Just tell the counter guy your year T and they will send for one and let you know when it's in. These gates belts hold there size and are superior to any other I have tried. The belt pictured here is right for a brass era T. Jay B.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Bunner on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:15 pm:

Ward, you are correct. Moving it to the left would make the matter worse. My thought is that you need a new belt. smaller than you have but close enough that it won't rub. Get out your wife's sewing kit and take the seamstress tape out of it and measure the proper size belt that will fit without rubbing then order it. Probably around 22.5''. It needs to keep the fan blades centered between the frame rails... You can easily check the current belt as well to prove that it has indeed stretched.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:28 pm:

Jay, I'm interested in how you knew how to cross reference to a modern Gates belt. Did you go thru stock until you found something that would work, is there a list of belt sizes to stock number somewhere. I'd like to be able to purchase a new belt locally for my 1926 TuDor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:39 pm:

You are NOT going to like what I am going to suggest next but somebody has taken that timer apart and put it back together INCORRECTLY. There are 4 screws that hold that thing together. 2 are long and 2 are short. The SHORT screws go where you have LONG screws sinch the thumb nuts should be located at exactly 90 degrees rotation from where they are. If the timer rod hole is at 12 o'clock your thumb nuts should be at 12 and 6 o'clock position - yours are at 3 and 9 o'clock position.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern Ca. on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:40 pm:

Mike I believe the 1926/27 belt is #813 check with your counter man. I just lucked into finding out about the gates belts by asking at the counter one day. Jay


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:44 pm:

Here is a picture of the cover, and as John suspected, it has the threaded stud for the spring to set over. I screwed out the stud so the threads are visible.

cover

Here is the arm. The one thing that stood out right away was the offcenter hole. Secondly, the two mounting holes are not parallel, if they once were. The arm seems a little twisted.

arm

So that's what I have. Everything on this car is how I receieved it. I am attempting to go thru and repair and correct things that been changed over the years. This is a mid year 1911, motor number 55276. If I need to search for correct items to resolve matters, that is what I need to know, and what to look for.


Ward in Az


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:44 pm:

Whether you want to change belts or not is not my issue but that fan arm was NEVER brass and yours looks pretty squirrely from where it should be. I think you could get a correct original fan arm without difficulty because for whatever reason - they continued to make them without change even though they did away with the spring. They just moved the adjustment later. Get a good straight IRON fan arm that is original and that should help a ton. For what it is worth - I have the fan belt you have pictured and it works fine on my early 1911. My car is 44430 open valve and it does NOT have the spring but DOES have the timer cover you have pictured.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 03:51 pm:

Ward:

Send me an email. I probably have a correct original fan arm around here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 04:11 pm:

OK Ward:

We are running about one posting behind each other ha ha. Your fix is easy. Take that stud out and VERY CAREFULLY put it into a small bag - then seal the bag with some heavy string and toss that thing as far out into the nearest CANAL that you can find. That stud was NEVER a part of that timer cover even if it was an original one and I don't want that stud finding its way back into somebody elses 1911 car. Once the stud is firmly at the bottom of the nearest deep waterway - proceed with the fix which is rather simple. Get a GOOD arm and locate a bolt AND nut of same thread as the timer cover - guess at the correct length and then swap for totally correct length as step 2. I think it is 3/8-24 thread - not sure. Correct bolt would be a typical thick headed early bolt with lots of threads well above the threaded boss. Put the lock nut on the bolt first and insert the thing into the place were the now waterlogged stud used to sit. The bolt head sticking up will rest on the bottom of the little bulge on the farm arm that the spring used to sit on. This was authentic Ford method for your car. Now you back the bolt up and out to tighten the belt and then lock the nut down against the threaded boss when you have it all the right tension. 5 lb pull on the tip of any fan blade is correct amount but don't ask me how to make sure of that amount. I use a fish scale that goes to 15 lbs but I have never caught a fish big enough to need the scale so now it rides around in my T tool box. New arm and bolt/nut tensioning should fix your belt issue and taking apart the timer and putting it back together with long/short screws swapped should move the thumb nuts to correct spot away from belt and you are good to go.

You owe me ice cream on next tour we both attend ha ha.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller "Tom" on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 04:13 pm:

If anyone needs it, here is the Gates cross reference for antique flat belts. The illustration shows a V-belt, but as shown in Jay's post above, the 811 is clearly a flat belt.

http://www.gatespowerpro.com/Comergent/en/US/adirect/gates?cmd=catNavigateFrame& CFID=4878005&CFTOKEN=55948408


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 06:33 pm:

Ha! The nearest CANAL that I can find. Folks, I'm in Arizona. I don't even have a tree. Finding a canal, well I may have a trip in my future.

Swapping the timer mounting screws around solved 90% of the problem. I appreciate all of the rest of the information, and I will get to it.

Mr. Regan, haven't you grown tired of the bitter winters, perhaps you would consider moving to AZ. I have a 5 acre parcel in a gated community nearby I can sell you. Then I can drop by and get advice and parts as needed!

Ward
Sierra Vista, AZ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 07:23 pm:

The other 10% of the problem will be solved when you get the correct fan arm on there and the correct belt tension setup. I would take a picture of my car since it would be exactly like yours is supposed to be but my car is not accessible at the moment. Absent a canal you can dig a hole, fill it with water and drop the stud/bag in there and cover it up. I have had that darn stud puzzle more people and cause more problems. I don't know who is making that timing cover but they need to get the word that it CANNOT be used on earlier cars as is. It CAN be modified by boring out the threaded hole to 5/8" and then building up the casting below with brazing to make up the correct SPRING WELL size and then boring the 5/8 down into that well a bit further. The spring has to have room to collapse a bit without stacking. I make the spring correct to the Ford drawings and there is NO WAY you could get it to work with your timing cover as is with that stud idea. In truth the spring was a bad idea anyway and using the bolt/nut arrangement against that nub on the bottom of the arm will in fact work rather well. That arm you have is a bad repro too by someone since the threaded hole is way off center in the casting. I was not aware that anyone made those and I hope yours is the only one they made. The arm pivot bolt and the fan shaft should be absolutely parallel with each other and the arm should swing straight up to provide about 1/4" clearance between edge of belt and timer case. That is about all the clearance there is and the belt does come close to the center part of the timer if you tighten it too much. Leather will stretch if you over tighten it and there is no reason to have it any tighter than necessary to keep it from slipping off the pulley which it will not do if the pulleys are running parallel and true and have the slightest bit of crown to them. The flanges should not be relied upon to keep the belt in place and if all is well, the belt will ride between them and not touch them.

I never trust gated communities since they seem to always want to keep ME out. I've been up North so long that I have to put on extra deodorant when it gets above 40 degrees.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 07:36 pm:

Ummmmmmm...John......I've got one of those brass arms too. Makes a purty paperweight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 07:47 pm:

R.V.:

See my directions for timing cover stud disposal - that applies to soft repro fan arms too. Using either as a paperweight stands the risk that the part will be recycled by our widows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 09:58 pm:

John - I seem to remember that when everything's perfect and you have exactly the right size fan belt, even then, as you say John, the belt comes quite close to the timer case. Correct me if I'm wrong John, but if the fan belt is even just a little bit too long, the extra length causes the belt to be that much closer, or maybe even touch the timer case. This is because moving the arm to tighten the "too long" belt changes the angle of that portion of the belt to make it come even closer to the timer. I think most cases of the belt being too close to the raised center portion of the timer (depending upon which brand and shape of timer you have) are because of the fact that the belt is a bit too long. For what it's worth,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:07 pm:

John - I seem to remember that when everything's perfect and you have exactly the right size fan belt, even then, as you say John, the belt comes quite close to the timer case. Correct me if I'm wrong John, but if the fan belt is even just a little bit too long, the extra length causes the belt to be that much closer, or maybe even touch the timer case. This is because moving the arm to tighten the "too long" belt changes the angle of that portion of the belt to make it come even closer to the timer. I think most cases of the belt being too close to the raised center portion of the timer (depending upon which brand and shape of timer you have) are because of the fact that the belt is a bit too long. For what it's worth,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:11 pm:

Never fails; whenever I try to post a comment and the computer "hangs up" for whatever reason, when it finally does go, it goes twice! (???)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 12:53 am:

I have an aluminum (early teens) timer cover that I'm going to send to Frank Fenton to put Anderson-type guts in it. It has a sizeable groove in the face of it worn there by the fan belt(s). Seems that this was a problem way back when.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 12:56 am:

Harold:

Yes that is exactly what happens. I said that in my last post and cautioned not to over tighten the belt. It is rather common to find "belt bites" and notches worn in the front face of the early aluminum timers. There really is no need to have the belt very tight unless you are running a water pump and that has its own set of issues. The early 2 piece timer as pictured here is fully necessary on a show car but most folks who do a lot of touring usually remove the early timing cover and 2 piece timer and hang them on the wall to pass them along to the next generation. It's hard to beat one of the Anderson timers or even a decent original rebuilt New Day timer since those are just more serviceable for touring. You rarely find an unrestored early car that has not had that already done to it during the car's long life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 12:59 am:

Mike:

Sorry to restate what you said. We were both writing at the same time. I hit the post before I noticed you said same thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 01:08 am:

Mike, Frank Fenton can put Anderson Guts in an old timer? Please explain and how do I get in touch with him. Thanks for the info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 01:12 am:

John -- All the contact info is at Frank's Timer Service under the listing of Parts Suppliers Links at the MTFCA home page.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 01:15 am:

Or try some of these:

Frank’s Timer Service

2251 Morgan Lane

Ingleside, TX 78362

361-230-0318

Frank@andersontimer.com

www.andersontimer.com



Manufacturing the New Anderson Style Timer

Rebuilding Anderson, Anco and Ford Timers into the

New Anderson Style.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 01:16 am:

Thanks Mike.


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