Bolt for water outlet still stuck in head

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Bolt for water outlet still stuck in head
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By andyknudsen on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 07:29 pm:

I have tried all kinds of things and still can't get what remains of the bolt out. Part of the problem now is that I have part of an extraction bit stuck in there (it snapped off) and it is a harder metal and resists drilling. Also have part of a drill bit stuck (have broken many drill bits working on this).

So, now I'm starting to think of alternatives. It occurred to me that I could file it flat and then just clamp that end since it seems to have an adequate lip on the flanged part of the outlet. I might also use some gasket sealant. Is this a good or bad idea? I'm not careing too much if it is "correct" I just want it to hold.

By the way, great suggestion on the mechanics magnet! I found a good one at Ace Hardware that will coil around the water passages pretty well and collect the crud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 07:53 pm:

Might find a used head at a swap meet cheap. High heads are pretty easy to come by, or you could buy a new high compression head that looks like an original head but has more power. Have you read the other posts about how to remove a head bolt? same method could be used. Weld a nut on it. The heat from welding might loosen it and with a nut welded on it, you might be able to remove with a wrench. I have not found the extractors to work very well. For one thing they are tapered and so as you twist it in it also expands the bolt making it tighter. And as you found out if it breaks, you have compounded the problem. A professional machine shop might have a hard enough drill to get it out. you would have to clamp it in some kind of drill press so you can get a straight shot on it.
Good luck,
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 07:59 pm:

There is a method that will remove even broken taps without damage but it CAN be expensive. Basically it is a process that vaporizes the broken bolt/extractor and it is a fairly common process known to most professional machine shops. I am lucky in that a local machinest friend of mine has access to one of these and I have read about them too. It is sort of like a very localized tig welding but it does not add material but rather ZAPs the material and removes it as ash. Might be worth a phone call to any local machine shop and see if anyone in your community has this technology. It has been around awhile. You can sometimes get lucky in that these guys might just do it for you for cheap once they know what sort of vehicle it is off of. If they do - you have to come back with the car and give them a driving lesson in it. Check it out before you go further.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Watson on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 08:37 pm:

Andy,

Glad the mechanics magnet has worked out for you. If you could post a picture of the head/bolt that would help. You could try drilling from the backside of the bolt and knock the extractor out from behind. Then drill to the next size larger and use that extractor. I would apply heat to the flange area before attempting with the new extractor. At least use a propane torch and get it good and hot. Don't rush it. Use a quality extractor as the cheaper ones tend to break. As a last resort you could drill out completely and use a Heli-Coil back to the original size.

Good Luck,
Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By andyknudsen on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 09:42 pm:

I can't drill from behind because there is a head bolt in the way and I can't get a straight angle. I tried to remove that bolt but it was not wanting to give and I was not in the mood for another twisted off bolt.

OK, how about this....since no one likes my clamping idea....I drill out completely as you suggest - I think I would be successful with a larger drill bit. And then, instead of the heli-coil, just run a smaller diameter bold thru the hole - no threading. I can use some heavy-duty washers are either end and tighten down. What would be wrong with that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gordon Byers on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:00 pm:

With the extractor broken off I don't believe you are going to have any luck drilling. I've seen a similar situation resolved with an acetylene torch. It was a broken head bolt with an easy out broken off as you describe. With a reasonably experienced torch hand they can blow out the broken bolt, extractor and all without much damage to the threads. If the threads are beyond repair and you are not going to show, a longer bolt with a nut and washer will work fine, you should be able to use the same size bolt as you are replacing.
Gordon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Watson on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:22 pm:

You could possibly get a 90 degree drill with the drill bit all the way in the chuck (or even cut down the drill bit) and drill from the backside. Or use a Dremel tool and grind/drill from behind. There is a 90 degree attachment for the Dremel tool. That is a good tool to have around for any project.

Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:27 pm:

Sounds like a job for a arc welder maybe. If you place a washer over it and then a nut and weld it together you have a fighting chance of removing it. Get lots of heat into the broken stub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 11:10 pm:

Gordon's method has worked for me. I broke an easy out in a manifold stud trying to remove renmants of a broken stud. A friend used an acetylene torch and burned the remains of both the stud and the easy out right out of the hole. Was an easy fix to add a heli coil.
Next question. Why not just replace the head?
A high head is a ten dollar item around here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george keyes on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 01:03 am:

Get a die grinder with a pointed carbide bit and a flat-ended carbide bit, start the hole with the pointed bit, deepen it with the flat one, work back an forth with the 2 bits, wear gloves and glases, the cuttings are like little needles. I bored 7 broken manifold bolts out of a 500 cad. engine that way. They were hard-like diamond, took a while but if you are carful, you can bore straight down and remove 95% of the stud, then chip the remainder out with a tapered punch and finish with a tap.. George.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Watson on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 09:41 am:

George,

Very interesting take using the pointed/flat carbide bits. I have never tried that and will certainly do so next time I break a bolt. I'm not sure Andy has access to an air compressor or acetylene torch either, but he could try using an angled die grinder with the carbide bits from the backside to make a hole and knock out the extractor. The angled die grinder should be plenty small enough to get in from behind. Then once removed continue as you said and tap.
Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 09:55 am:

I would need to see a picture to better understand the situation.
You are in for a hard row to hoe trying to drill out a ease out.The torch method,if used carefully will git it out.
Depending on how much of the bolt is drilled out you may have some threads left after the removal that can be cleaned up, but for a more reliable thread I would use the helicoil.

I have been both lucky and unlucky removeing bolts and such with a torch.Sometimes I can cut a rusty nut off a bolt and not harm the threads at all,sometimes,OOOPS.You gota have a steady hand.
I have cut partly drilled out bolts out with a torch and got lucky.You heat the bolt,it gets ready to cut before the surrounding metal,a quick pop on the lever and you should see metal leave.STOP,let it cool and try again.Your base metal is starting to get some of the heat and if you go to try again to soon,the base metal may heat up along with the bolt,thus allowing damage when you pop the lever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 10:26 am:

I have done something similar to what George recommends when confronted by a similar problem. In my case I had a tap snapped off in a heli coil that was in an aluminum forging that cost nearly $100K. We used a die grinder and carbide ball burr to grind out the tap and the helicoil. Using a 90 degree pick and a air blower the small pieces eventually could be worked out.

You can buy a good quality ball burr here: http://www.mcmaster.com


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