Relocated-New Title: 1915 – 1917 Beaudett body tag information – is the answer in the numbers?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Relocated-New Title: 1915 – 1917 Beaudett body tag information – is the answer in the numbers?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 11:09 am:

Hi all,

I inadvertently high jacked Neil’s “SPAM” posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/79137.html?1232337282 If you have replies about SPAM on the forum – please put them there. But I have relocated the 1915-1917 Beaudett body tag information here with the hopes that additional folks will add to it as well as making it easier to find in the future.

How to high jack a thread – oops – I noticed Neil’s profile said he had a 1915 so I asked him the following question in hopes of getting additional data about the 1914-1922 open car body numbers:

+++++++++ from the original postings +++++++

If you have the car in a heated garage -- please take a look and let us know if you have a letter on the front heel panel [added this is from Royce Petterson's Mar 1915 Beaudett]:



or if you have a body manufacture number on the wooden seat frame -- (lift the cushion and look on the wood in front of the gas tank) -- it might be a tag like below [added this is from Royce Petterson's Mar 1915 Beaudett]:



Or stamped into the wood [added: on the wooden front seat frame cars -- this is from Bud's 1914 ] like below:



or if it has a metal seat frame -- does it have the number stamped into a tag or into the wood on the right front floorboard riser like below:



If you don't have a heated garage -- recommend you wait until things warm up some before you go out to look.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
+++++++++++++++++++

Then Neil replied that his car was a few thousand miles away and he would look in June.

++++++++++++++++

And then Daniel Benjey posted:

I have a '15 Touring with a B in the riser as in photo 1 and a serial tag as in photo 2. It has no rivet head on the side body aft of the front seat.

++++++++++++++++

And Royce Peterson responded:

Daniel,

The riser panel with the "B" shown in Hap's post above is a picture of my 1915 Touring, serial #733122. I've examined several Beaudette bodies from 1914 - 17 and all are built similarly, with wood structure having the steel panels nailed and screwwed into place, and wood access doors for the fuel tank and under the rear seat.

The rivets were used on other brands of bodies in 1915. In those cars the structure beneath the seats is made of steel formed pieces.




+++++++++++++++++++++++
And Hap Tucker responded:

Dan,

From your profile it appears you have also only posted a few times – so welcome aboard! When you have a chance please send and/or post the month and year of your engine serial number and also the casting date. Please let us know what the numbers are on your tag and if there are any “dots” or spaces between any of the numbers.

If you look again at Royce’s body tag above it has 3 15 xxxxx That 3 15 we believe is for Mar 1915. That fits well with his 733122 engine number which was probably produced Mar 27, 1915. [Royce – did you notice your engine number was the 21st stamped / recorded on the Mar 27 engine log (9ref page 510 of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford”)? Note, there is also a chance that the engine number 733122 was sent along with other engine numbers for use at one of the branch assembly plants. If that was the case it probably was stamped a few days or weeks later depending on the plants use of the numbers onto one of the engine and transmission assemblies there.]

Again thanks to everyone for helping us track down information and find help for folks.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

++++++++++++++++++

And Daniel Benjey responded:

Hap & Royce,
I'm attempting to attach photos of the areas in question. The body serial number stamped on the plate under the seat is: 8.15.279012, The engine serial (stamped) is: 891663 and the casting numbers on either side of the water inlet are: N21 32715.
Thanks,
Dan

++++++++++++++++++++

And Hap Tucker responded:

Dan,

Thanks for taking a look. Feel free to e-mail me the photos (just click on my name on any posting I’ve made and the 3rd line down is my actual e-mail address – you can send attachments that way). Or for information on how to post a photo (most of us had to ask for help on how to post a photo) see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/74713.html

Just a quick summary to make sure I have it correctly:
1. You have a “B” stamped on the front seat panel that indicates your body was produced by Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette, also refered to as Pontiac on many of the Ford documents).
2. It has the metal tag attached to the wooden front seat frame.
3. It has a wooden gas tank cover (I don’t think you commented on that – but please confirm that is the case.
4. The body does not have the rivet head on the outside just in front of the rear doors.
5. The engine number 891xxx corresponds to Sep 10, 1915 engine assembly date if it was assembled at the Highland Park Plant (it would be a later date if the number was sent to a branch plant and stamped onto an engine assembly they built at the branch plant).
6. The body tag 8.15.279012 would represent Aug 1915 which fits great with a Sep engine date.
7. The casting date appears to be 32715 which would be Mar 27, 1915. I would suggest taking another look at that. Perhaps it might have been a poorly cleaned engine block mold and the leading 3 may have been an 8? Or perhaps the engine block was shipped to a branch assembly plant and it sat around for six months before it was assembled and the serial number was stamped. Note I think (but don't know for sure) that the N21 is probably the number for the mold. If they had problems with the casting they could remove or repair a mold if it was causing problems.
8. Thanks for posting the information. I’m trying to figure out when Beaudett stopped making the wooden seat riser type bodies and switched to the metal seat framed bodies.
9. If you have not already read Bruce McCalley’s posting about a very original Sept 23, 1915 touring you will enjoy reading about that one at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1915_ford.htm

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

++++++++++++ that is the end of the RELOCATED posting which originally appeared at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/79137.html?1232337282

Respectfully relocated,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 12:07 pm:

Dan,

Thanks for sending me the photos from your engine area. They were all just a little larger than the 200 kb limit [100 kb if someone is not a registered user] which will prevent you from being able to post them on the forum. All I did was make them a little smaller (I use the software that came on my computer – but any software that will compress them or just crop them so they are smaller in the number of bits will work) so I could post them.

Note if you have the original pictures – there is an excellent chance your camera took them at a much higher resolution. When you have a chance (no rush) please send me the higher resolution photos of the engine and casting date so I can look at the first digit of the casting date a little more. And if you have a shot from a slightly different angle that may or may not help solve the question. Just looking at what you sent it could easily be a “3” But I think it also could easily be an “8.” Your follow on photos may or may not be able to clarify that answer. It appears the mold maker that day either had some sand left in the casting date number or a slightly damaged number or both.



Above is your casting date cropped and zoomed in about 300 percent.



Above is the 3 or 8 zoomed in again 300 more percent.



Above it is zoomed in and reversed. With a higher resolution photo we probably could see more details. It might help if you lightly hand wire brushed that one number just to make it shoe up better. But then again -- it may still be in that “looks like a 3 to some folks and possibly an 8 to other folks.” Either way it could have been assembled by Ford originally that way. Some things like the 1926 engine in the 1915 Ford – clearly would not have been from the factory that way.



Above I cropped your engine serial number. I only ask for the first parts of the numbers as that easily allow me to get within a day or two on the engine production records from Bruce McCalley’s book. I prefer not to post the entire number just because there are some dishonest people who if they could use the information illegally they would. You asked about the way the numbers were slanted and if I thought it had been restamped. No, I don’t think it was restamped. Many (not all) of the cars have the numbers slanted. They were hand stamped in the engine shop and the worker was trying to keep up with the production.
You can also easily see a “4” after the “N” on the casting mold number. That is one reason I like the pictures – I can zoom in and sometimes (not always) see a little more than I would just looking at the car.



Above is your Beaudett body number tag on your wooden front seat frame. I think there is a good chance that is the original black paint showing through the red paint.

And I am even more excited [ok – some of us are easily excited] that your Sep 1915 Beaudett has the tag on the wooden front seat frame while Don Springer’s Beaudett bodied touring with Engine Serial number 1002xxx and casting date 12-2-15 and body tag # 10 15 301421 (or close to that) for an Oct 1915 body on a Dec 13, 1915 engine serial number. His Beaudett body tag is shown below:



Note Don Springer’s Beaudett body tag has moved from under the front seat to the right front floorboard riser but it is the same basic tag used before. Below is Don Springer’s Beaudett body front seat heel panel:



Note the slight change in the location of the “B”, that the center stiffening indentation does not run up past the horizontal stiffening indentation. And from the e-mail he sent to me both his front and back seat frames are STEEL and NOT wood.

The sample size is way to small to draw any major conclusions. But it does indicate that Beaudett had introduced the metal seat frames by Oct 1915. It does NOT let us know when Beaudett discontinued the all wood seat frames – there could have been a day, a week, a month, or months of overlap as they used up older supplies, and converted to the new jigs for building the bodies. But if you know of anyone that has a Beaudett body (normally has a “B” on the front and/or rear seat heel panel) around the Jun 1915 to Jun 1917 time frame – please let us know what type of seat frame it has, if it has the carriage bolt in the side or not, body number and all but the last three digits of the engine serial number, and the casting date. And PLEASE DO NOT GO OUT IN GARAGES THAT ARE BELOW 50 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. It isn’t worth catching a cold or getting pneumonia over. I’ve been working on this several years a few more months won’t be that big of a delay.

I’ll send Don Springer an e-mail asking him to confirm that his Oct 1915 Beaudett body also has the carriage bolt in front of the rear doors securing the metal front seat riser or to let us know if it does not. I would assume it does – but that can lead us to the wrong conclusions sometimes.

Again thanks to everyone for all there help!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 02:16 pm:

Hap,
I think you already have my car in your data base, but just in case, engine No. 999,xxx, estimated production time, about 10am Dec 10, 1915 (only estimated because of the date of stamping 1,000,000), Beaudett body, metal seat frames & lids, outside rivet. Still trying to find any number on the floor risers, but haven't seen any yet. Thought I'd watch more CIS shows, maybe they'd show how to lift numbers off wood, instead of gun barrels! :-)
T'ake care,
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:37 pm:

Thank you for posting the information. Yes, I still have the original information you sent me back in Oct 2004. Hard to imagine it has been that long that we have been looking for body numbers and we still don’t have the case solved. We would be fired if this was a television program!

Two additional thoughts about what/where to look on your Dec 1915 Beaudett bodied touring. First – look on the right front floorboard rise – not for the metal tag or the numbers stamped into the wood, but rather for the two holes the brads for the metal tag would have left in the wood. Based on the small sample size we currently have, I would think a Dec 1915 Beaudett bodied touring with a steel seat frame would have a “body number tag” and if you can’t see it there, perhaps it has been pulled off sometime in the past.

The other place I would recommend looking is on the actual body sill wood located below the right passenger floorboard riser. We have seen one car that has a tag there instead of the more common location for the steel seat frame cars which is the right hand passenger floorboard riser.

Below is Tom’s Jun 1916 and just above the carpenter’s ruler is a body number plate. Tom shared the plate size is 5.5 inches by 1 inch.





His front seat heel panel does NOT have a letter stamped into it and nor does his rear seat heel panel have a letter. Trent previously posted a note about Tom’s body tag:

"Yours is the plate usually seen on Fisher Body Company Touring car bodies.
Most bodies in 1916 arrived at the Ford factory in the white and Ford painted
the bodies. Given that the plate was on the body when delivered to the
factory, it was probably painted at the same time as the body was.

The location of the plate on your body is a new one to me. I will have to
add it to list...."

Back to Hap again: So one theory I have been trying to explore is if a tag with a date code but no letter on the front or rear seat heel panel was probably a Fisher produced body. But I do not have any documentation that it is that way or that it is always that way. There is still lots more to confirm.

Again thanks to everyone who has contributed in the past and to those who will add some more information in the future.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 09:58 pm:

Hap,
Hmm, tack holes, eh? Sounds like we're gittin' down to TBI here! (T Body Investigators) SCI stand aside! OK, when I get to my body (buried in my storage garage with stuff all around it) and have good light, I will look for that, never thought about them before. Good pointer!
T'
David D.
PS of course, if I find tack holes, that means we'll never know what body number I have! (had??)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 11:43 pm:

David,

No, finding two tack/brad holes on the right front floorboard area wouldn't tell you what body number was originally there. But it might help confirm if your Beaudett body which was mounted to a Dec 1915 chassis had the body tag mounted there originally or not. And that might add a little more information to our data. And if you find the tag painted over but on the body sill, that would answer your body number question.

And no, please don't go digging in the cold garage -- it can wait until warmer weather.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 12:15 am:

Hap,
I'm in N. Calif. was near 70 today, but I was a work! It IS supposed to get colder (more normal) later this week (when I have a day of, of course). Since the Almond trees are starting to bud, it's about time for some cold rain to ruin this year's crop. :-(
Now about digging, hmmm. I will look and see, I've been trying to organize stuff, but I think this is still deeply covered with other stuff still.
T'
David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 07:49 am:

David,

There were times that entire cars could disappear under the stacks in my Dad's garage. And like the shifting sands of the desert when the kids picked up the stuff we had left at home, suddenly a vehicle or body etc. could be seen again. So if it is a major work -- recommend you wait until you would normally dig it out. Again, thanks for all your support and the next time part of the garage is cleaned out our some -- let us or at least me -- know what you discover.

And if/when you get there -- be sure to take some photos of the door latches, front seat riser, inside of the cowl over where the coil box would be, seat area -- especially if it no longer has the upholstery on it. Thanks for all your support.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 07:31 pm:

Hap,
Well, this is going to be disappointing. I got tired of cleaning up our future bedroom (right now the saw room, so you can imagine the mess) and it stopped raining, and is actually rather mild outside, so I jumped the drainage ditch that is a stream right now and hiked up to the "upper shop" building. Glad I did this, found some stuff that wasn't stacked well, and starting to fall over, so re-arranged that and voila! I can get into the front half of my body (rear half is disassembled). Started looking very carefully at the whole front passenger corner, and have concluded (augh!!) that someone, in some decade long ago, must have replaced the floor riser, it looks different than the surrounding wood. NO sign of any numbers, nor any nail holes there nor in the lower angle block. Um, seat area is also apart already and I'd have to take some time to dig out all that stuff too! Door latches are the early type and they're also in a box somewhere. My body needs complete re-wooding, except for the cowl area (and now that I realize those pieces aren't necessarily "legit" probably the cowl too), so I've taken much of it apart, before we moved to this house, and now it has been three years, so I'm forgetting stuff! Fortunately there is an unrestored, fairly decent match here in town I can go look at if I need to. (Hmm, I should see what numbers are on it, I'll ask the guy).
Sorry 'bout that!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 08:44 pm:

David,

Thanks for looking! Sorry you didn't find any additional clues. That is quite common for most of the cars. My 1915 had the wood replaced in several locations and that is one of them – so no number or tag for my body either. There also is not a letter on my 1915 front seat heel panel so I'm still trying to figure it out. My car is actually what got me started into trying to figure out which body produced my body so I could look for parts from that same body maker.

From memory – and we know that is dangerous. I don’t think Beaudett used the riveted cowl (where the top of the cowl was riveted to the front flat metal panel with 9 rivets (7 show when the wood is in the car and 9 when the wood is not installed.) But that still leaves several other choices the body could have been produced by.

Yes, please take a look at your friend’s touring body and send any information you find. Also, not that if his car has the wooden seat frames and your car has the metal seat frames that area will be quite a bit different between the two bodies. About the same distances but how they are attached would be different.

Again, thank you so much for looking!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


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