Outer Grease Seals

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Outer Grease Seals
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 08:24 pm:

I have just installed a rebuilt Ruxstell. I put the new neoprene outer grease seals on the axle
The problem that I notice is this seal turns with the axle. This is only happening on 1 side.
Please advise an appropriate fix to hold the seal from rotating
Thanks
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 08:42 pm:

Is this the inner seal or on the outside?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 08:50 pm:

Jack
These are OUTER seals
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 09:23 pm:

Did you lube the center hole with a little vasoline? They should not be able to turn the outer steel seal cup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 09:27 pm:

Gary,

Do you have the outer bearing sleeves in place?

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:03 pm:

Paul & Jack
I am not sure that I understand Paul's comments re the relationship with the outer bearing sleeves.
These outer neoprene grease seals slip over the end of the housing, just like the original grease seal caps that covered the felt washer
Please update me on your thoughts
I did grease the center hole as recommended by Jack
Any other suggestions from members are welcome
Thanks
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

Gary,

My bad. I missed the part about them being the outer OUTSIDE seals and not the outer inside seals. LOL.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

It sounds like your bearings arn't seating in the axle tube properly. Is the outer bearing sleeve fully into the axle?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 11:14 pm:

All bearings and sleeves are installed properly.
The problem seems to be that the seal is slipping around the housing. Apparently the housing must be a tiny bit smaller than expected. The other side is okay.
I even switched seals from side to side and the good side still works okay but the problem side continues to spin.
I hesitate to glue the seal to the housing.
Any more suggestions are welcome from members
Thanks
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 11:17 pm:

Send them back and get a different set. It's a manufacture problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 01:04 am:

The diameter of the shoulder on pre 1920 axle housings is a little smaller than the later housings. There are no seals made to fit the early housings. You can make a shim out of a tin can to insert between the inner diameter of the seal and the outer diameter of the housing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 01:15 am:

Glen
I have a small drum rucksteel. The problem is on the rucksteel side (drivers side)
Would the diameter of the shoulder be my problem on this housing
Would 1 wrapping of duct tape on the housing be suitable or a big wide rubber band do the job. What problems would happen if the seal came loose
Thanks
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 08:01 am:

Two things I can think of that would bother me Garry:

1. The seal will likely rotate and move out as the car goes down the road and something has to wear more was the cap rotates around the axle housing. This means metal shavings will be produced at least to some degree and you don't want them getting into the bearing area.

2. You don't really have a grease seal if it the seal body isn't tight on the axle housing. Sure, the grease won't leak out the neoprene area but it will come out around the housing/cap joint.

I'd remove both seals and carefully measure the O.D. of each housing end and compare these to I.D. measurements of the seal caps.

I had this problem once with some modern seals that used a pressed steel cap similar to the originals and finally cured the problem by sawing a couple of slots in the cap and using a hose clamp which I believe is still in place on my brothers huckster (but I'll admit that seems a bit barbaric).

If the clearances are not too far apart on the loose end, you could use a Loctite product made to hold the two parts together. If removal is necessary in the future, this will require the application of heat to loosen the joint and will probably ruin the neoprene seal in the process but is something a fella has to live with. Silicone sealant is the other alternative I suppose or shimming which can be a bit tricky but can be done.

Others may have better ideas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 12:54 pm:

Gary, The new Ruckstell housings are made using original Ford Housing tubes and backing plates. To be honest, we never even thought about this problem and use what ever core tubes a customer supplies. However this is really not a problem. The seal cap will not turn if you make a shim as suggested. We use tin from an old paint thinner can. It is usually about 0.010 In thick. If you need more or less thickness you can buy shim stock and put the butt ends of the shim at the top. If you are worried about leakage at the butt you can use some devcon or other sealer at the joint. As a side note, we never use a lip type seal at the outer side of the bearing. If you use a neoprene inner seal seal it will provide a seal both at the inner side at the axle and at the outer side against the stop ring in the housing. Then, no oil will get past it. The inner seals ar a boot type seal and will follow the axle off center as the bearing and sleeve wear. A lip type seal has a narrow lip seal and will not follow the axle off center very far. If the inner seal retains the oil as it should, the original Ford felt seals on the outer side of the bearing can easily retain the outer bearing grease.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dizer on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 10:30 pm:

If it is a diameter problem I would clean both parts with a spray brake cleaner so that they are spotless. Then I would use the Ultra black silicon sealer to glue the seal on. Put a bead around the inside of the diameter of the seal and press it on the housing. Let it dry for at least a day(2 would be better) and it will be stuck on very well and won't leak around the outside. I just tried to order the modern inner seals and both Langs and Snyders are out of them. Don SnyderIII emailed me that the form or mold had been damaged and it would probably be at least 6 weeks before they had any more! I am getting ready to assemble my 25 T differential this week so had him send the leather seals to try. Hopefully with the modern outer seals it will keep the new brake shoes dry!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 10:48 pm:

Gary

The idea by Bill seems the best. I would hesitate from using sheet shim stock. Those modern grease seals are machined alum with dual grooves in the i.d., each groove having an neoprene o-ring installed.

If you shim, then one of those or both o-rings could catch on the shim edge and roll out, or get cut.

One fix is to knurl the inner edge where the alum seal rests. That's to say, take punch or file to the shoulder of the axle housing inboard of the o-ring contact area. Measure the seal depth when installed, mark, remove the seal, and knurl or raise the housing metal just inside that mark.

Then when you push the modern seal onto the housing, the distal end of the alum seal will push onto that knurled area for an interference fit and lock the seal in place like the one that fits the other side. It's pretty obvious that the Ruckstell side housing is a bit smaller in dia, knurling the dia bigger is a way to get that modern seal tight again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 11:01 pm:


Garry
Don't think what I just posted tonite is right, disregard making any punch marks or raising the shoulder on the axle housing..:-( my thoughts where someplace else! That wont work.

The o-rings raise the dia of the cap to allow it to snug on the axle housing. So in fact shim or adhesive would be the way. Adhesive silicone is pretty good fix. You just want to be sure the modern seal cap fits tight without turning.

I used the modern seal outer caps on my Ruckstell, here is the pic of the bearing install just prior to seating the modern seal outer caps. In my case, each cap went on with a tap of the mallet. They fit very snug.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 11:56 pm:

Thanks for all the good opinions. I now need to get into the garage and do the installation
It was interesting to note Glen's comments that some axles were originally made a little smaller on one side
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 12:10 am:

Garry, pre 1920 Ford axle housing ends were made a little smaller on both sides. Your RH side axle housing is apparently post 1920, while your Rucktell side is made out of a pre 1920 Ford axle housing parts, (or made to pre 1920 Ford specifications, if Rucktell didn't buy the pipe & backing plate from Ford)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garry Potter on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 02:49 pm:

Bravo !!!!
I solved my problem the easy way.
I had purchased 2 sets of the neoprene outer seals, one for an earlier car and the other for a later car.
I put the smaller seal on the car and it worked fine on the smaller side. I left the larger seal on the larger side
This cost more money but solved the problem quickly.
I now have a small and large seal in inventory or for a flea market.
Another questiion.
On the back inside of the wheel hub/brake drum there is a circular groove. What is the purpose. Is there another seal or felt required with this neoprene seal and what are the part numbers
Thanks
Garry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 03:54 pm:

Garry

That groove in the wheel hub is for the #2809 Hub Felt. All of the rear wheels I have ever removed don't have it. Of course, all of those wheels have been covered in grease:-)



Since the modern outer seal is light years better than the #2510 set up of the washer,bearing felt, and steel cap, I just don't use that bigger felt at the inside of the hub. No grease leaks with the modern outer seals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cook on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 09:26 pm:

Gary, you are correct about the seals. There are actually 2 different sizes availabe since the housings were different size. I solved mine by drilling and tapping and putting a setscrew in the seal to hold it tight on the housing. Setscrew must be close to the edge of seal to grip the axle housing.


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