Ebay item 320334689657 claims to be a '09-'10 axle; but I thought Dodge Brothers only started forging axles in 1912. Is this a cobbled up fake?
I'd come closer to believing it is a 13-14 .
Looks like it's made for one piece spindles. It also has the T202 factory number which was not on '09-,'10's I don't think.
I took another look at it and it just may be the real thing. The spindle arms go staight up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320334689657&ru=ht tp%3A%2F%2Fmotors.shop.ebay.com%3A80%2F__%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm39%26_nkw%3 D320334689657%26_nd1%3D%26_fvi%3D1
Don't the later ones have T-202-B on them?
The original Model T axle was the T-202 (A would be added later in the parts books to differentiate it from the revised T-202B axle)
When they dropped the one piece spindles and went to two-piece plus a nut spindles, they added the "B" suffix. Otherwise the two axles are very similar.
The images are from the original Ford drawings at the Benson Ford Research Center.
Had to go and look at the markings on my Aug 09 axle - part no looks to be 'T202F.' upside down on the front face. It's a one-piece spindle axle with the notches to allow extreme steering angle. Only other mark is a M or W on its side at the axle end.
I have another spare beam and spindles which has no marks at all.
Just had a look in the Encyclopedia Chronological list of changes - refers to T202 & T202F axles having spindle clearance notches removed Nov 29 1909. Can't see if the eBay axle has the notches - they are on the back face.
Sorry if the photos are a bit big - still not mastered the Christmas present DSLR!
Let's try again with photos, these might be easier to see.
That is a Transue -Williams axle.
The large sideways W over T is the early Transue Williams mark used up through mid 1911. Some early two piece spindle style axles have this mark located about one third of the way in from the left end of the axle and came with one piece spindles. I have such a set up and there is no number on it. TW varied the size, location and orientation of their mark over the years. From what Jem has observed, it appears '09-'10 axles may or may not have had the factory number on them. T202 is the factory number, 2691 is the part number. I would like to hear from the knowledgeable researchers who have been telling us Dodge Brothers made no axles for early model T,s.
I just on my 09 and 10 front axles. the 1910 (23805) has no part number or trade mark. The 1909
(314)has the trade mark only as pictured.
So what is the verdict ? Is the one on ebay the real deal or buyer beware ?
My guess is someone took an early DB axle and with a lot of work has mad a close copy.
Could you modify the later axle that way? Pretty tricky, looking at the drgs posted above by Tom Mullin.
At Chickasha at least the last two years there has been a vendor who sells the converted axle from a common one to the one piece spindle type. He also sells a converted one piece oilpan.
I have seen converted/fake 1909-10 front axles at Chickasha and I've seen another one listed on ebay before. Someone has cast new end piece for the axle and these have been welded onto a later axle. On some of these, you can tell where the welding seam is if you look closely. They don't match up exactly perfect. And like other have been saying on this thread: The axle stampings will still be those of the later axle.
Ow! Might be OK for a trailer queen, I don't think I would want to go touring with that setup.
The seller, I feel. has an obligation to state what he knows of the history of the axle. Did it come off a chassis or an incomplete auto? Some of the early axles were replaced when a one piece spindle was replaced. The early axle can only be used with the one piece spindles. If the axle has reproduction ends, I would think the seller must state this.
Is anyone close to checking and getting a photo of Robin Brock's(ex Don Hess car)Serial #2 in Scotland?
Its been a long time since I have seen this car,but if I remember correctly it had a Weston-Mott axle.I think it had a W over an M inside a Circle.A closeup photo would help and confirm-we might as well have ALL examples showen in this thread.
-Don Watson in Colorado
The seller claims it is original and untampered with .
If I were interested,I'd ask for some better photos. I'm not, as I have two DB front axles extra right now. I'm going to fix them up and sell them.
The area between the spring perch mounting hole and the end of the axle looks kind of funny. The raised diamond shape looks flattened out. I was not aware axles are being converted, now I am even more suspicious. I have not heard any one say they know of an original DB one piece spindle axle.
There is only one thing for sure on e bay, buyer be ware. With that in mine there are a number of resons your history and research of the afore mentioned item has to be done, none the least good pictures!
I own a made up 09-10 axel and unsuccessfully tried to sell it on eBay last year. Of course I disclosed the fact and offered to cut off the cast ends or ship the entire axel. The fellow who restored the car drove a few thousand miles on that axel before selling the car to my seller, and when I got it, I saw cracks developing in the welds. Had I not found an original, I would have had it professionally rewelded. The thought of risking life and limb on a poor weld doesn't sit well with me.
I too noticed the area between the fork and perch looked different.
Ok, All you with knowlege. All this talk made me take a look at the axles I have. Mine have the Ford script and a triangle with an F inside. Early? Late? Good? Bad? I did notice that one was bent back?? Are they worth straightening? I know I'll most likely keep at least one extra.
well..now that we are on the subject, i have pretty much of all the front axle assembly for my '10 touring project [one piece spindles, tie rod, spring, etc..] but i really need an early axle beam to attach it all to..the ebay item just looks a bit too shakey to me so i would ask anyone out there with a "spare" early axle beam to contact me. i'm not as concerned as some about markings and such as long as the shape is correct [i'm not afraid of a reasonable price either]...thanks dave <barneswillis"at"yahoo.com>
"The seller claims it is original and untampered with." The seller also has 0 feedback. I think I will steer clear of that item.
The seller is in our local club, and I can vouch for his honesty and integrity.
He bought it thinking it would fit his 1914 and then found out it was for an earlier T, so he is selling it.
Just wondering, did Dodge Brothers make replacement parts for the earlier Model T's? There would have been thousands of 1909 - 10 Model T's on the road by the time Dodge Brothers began forging axles.
The seller has told me that he has just found out that it is indeed a later axle that had reproduction ends welded on . He said he was not aware and did not want some one else to get taken
on the axle . He had so many questions about the axle that he decided to contact the guy he got it from . Turns out someone in Florida is making
these and says there are several on the road .
Kudo's to the seller for setting things straight .
A prudent modifier would stamp: "For Display Only" on each end.
As is, his liability is unlimited.
Right after I posted I found out more of the story from one of our local club members. Dan S is correct, the axle was made by Glenn Johnson in Florida.
Roger, the ebay seller, did not know it was a repro until yesterday. He asked this Johnson fellow to refund his money without success.
I talked to Johnson at the T Centennial last year. He was set up a couple tables down from me and Ron Miller and Bud S. There were repro 5 ball Kingston carburetors, reproduction one piece 1909 - 11 oil pans and a bunch of other ersatz 1909 - 10 parts being offered for sale by Johnson.
Seems to me Glenn Johnson ought to buy back this axle since it was sold to Roger under cloudy circumstances.
A little more on Roger's purchase. Mr. Johnson was next to me at the Richmond Swap meet.I saw his axle and asked if it was correct for a '14. I asked the important Questions as I'm not very knowledgible about early cars He said it was. Ron Miller and I both looked it over and it looked to be in very good condition. I called Roger and told him about the axle. He said it was just what he wanted. Mr. Johnson assured us it was correct for Roger's car as we were on the phone with Roger. As I understand from Roger Mr. Johnson told Roger that I knew it was fake. That my friends is a BLATANT lie. Ron Miller was right with me when Mr. Johnson assured us it was correct for our friend's needs. NEVER I mean NEVER was it ever disclosed that it was a fake. We would not have bought such a piece of crap for anyone to have in a vehicle that has the potential to cause a catastrophic accident. I thought Mr. Johnson was a good fellow, Even watched his table while he was running around the flea market. I have changed my mind about him. Some folks may be happy with his work and others may be in the same position as Roger, totally unaware of the dangerous axle that they are driving. I believe he should respond to this Forum by what ever means availible to him and straighten this mess out. He definitely should make folks aware of his product's nature,rather than screw the unsuspecting buyer. While he's at it he need's to apologize to those involved,like myself and Ron Miller who were only trying to do a friend and fellow club member a favor!!
When I visited Johnson's booth several years ago I asked if the 09-10 axle was one the had been changed to create the early style and he said that the ends had been altered. He or his associates also create the two piece drive housing. He also volunteered that the carburetors were reproductions. He answered any questions I had. I would hope that he would inform any buyer as to what the product was and for what years. Has Mr. Johnson replied?
I was interested in bidding on this axle and now
I am glad to find out the truth about it . I too am in need of a good original axle for one piece spindles . I will pay good money for the right stuff . Thanks
I'm interested in knowing where it was welded.I looked at the ebay pics and cannot see where it was welded.Has it been aged or cosmetically hidden where it was welded?
These days,it's pretty easy to fake just about anything. You got to be careful.
Just to let everyone know, Mr. Johnson contacted me tonight. He asked me to send the axle back to him, and in turn he will refund my money. He apologized for the misunderstanding. Thanks to everyone for their concerns. I appreciate it! If anyone has a Dodge Brothers axle or spindles for a 1914, please contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks!
The first tip off was, finish, look at your own axels and what do they look like after 100 years of kicking around not like it just came out of the forge
Here's a photo of my made up axel. You can see where the parts are welded together. The guy I got the car from smoothed the joint with bondo. As you can imagine, I wasn't thrilled when I found out.
Actually I don't have serious heartburn about these axels as a general matter so long as the work is done correctly. But imagine how difficult it must be to keep everything aligned so the profile, distances etc are correct. I don't know how Glen does his work, but I hope he uses an alignment jig and is a very capable welder. I believe Dan Mari makes the forks. They are beautiful.
Well,I notice the axle aint met reserve yet on ebay.
Richard,are you planning to reuse that axle?
The reason I ask is this.
I would at least want to know what type metal the axle is made of,I think Vadium steel.
I would also want to know what rods were used,7018 or 6011 for example.As that might be important if the axle and the weld dont flex the same.
Is it possiable to magnaflux the axle in the welded area or perhaps xray it like they do a gas line after it is welded?Maby this would garrentee no cracks or air bubbles.
We sometimes read about and discuss heating a axle to straighten it.Heat applied to that small area to weld it would change that metal.Would it be dangerous,who knows.
I have welded some stuff in my life that many folkes wouldnt.But I dont know if I would weld a axle like that unless I was in DIre need,and then I would probably plate it,allthough it would ruin it's appearance.
I was thinking the same thing as Mack. I have welded many things in my life that others would not touch, including steering parts on cars, trucks and tractors. No matter how good the welder is, no matter what equipment or material used, only God knows what has become of the integrity of the metal surrounding that weld. I would not drive it on the street.
IMO, I see no problem with the integrity of that welded up axle - as huge as that cross-section is, the axle would probably be fine made out of AISI 1020. If a 1/2" bolt is adequate as a kingpin and if the 12 spokes can be made of wood...
Mack, I found a good original from a friend in Australia and am using that one on the car. If I had used this one, I would have cut off the ends and aligned them with tack welds on another axel then have a pro weld them up.
I once had a welded trailer hitch come apart at freeway speeds so I am not big on relying on welds either.
I think welding a piece of cast iron to a piece of forged steel is iffy at best. Also, in my opinion, cast iron is not strong enough in any case.
I never saw any mention of the end piece being cast iron though I certainly may have missed it. Cast steel would be my choice - seems to work just great for high-pressure valves in the oil and gas industry.
Cast steel (8620) would be my choice for a replacement affordable T crankshaft as well - but the idea of a cast crankshaft has, for the most part, been killed.
I think it unlikely the retrofit parts are cast iron as these complex end assemblies woud twist up like a pretzsel given this much weld. I'm a little confused that the manufacturer would not refund for this part. Doesn't sound like a grest deal of money involved, and from what I hear of the manufacturer, there are no shortages of 09/10 builders looking for this product.
it is my understanding that a few original-style "ends" were made by dan mari. they were not made from cast iron but a cast malleable or ductile material. whether this axle was fabricated from similar material is unknown.
Cast steel usually welds very nice but you would need a 1/8" gap or most of the weld would be ground off.Because 1914 was mentioned were there any DB still used in new production?? I have a Cleavland Hardware myself.Bud.
Cast malleable iron is still cast iron. It does not possess the qualities needed to be successfully (safely) welded to a piece of forged steel. The weak point is the iron itself. Nor does malleable / ductile cast iron possess the needed strength to support the spindle.
OK for a display only vehicle that rolls on and off a trailer I suppose. If they wanted to do a safer job and make a usable repro front axle I think they should mill the whole thing from a piece of steel billet.
I generally try to keep my mouth closed unless I have something nice to say, but I think this is a frightening and sad thing for a person to try to palm off some dangerous fakery, without full disclosure, just to make a couple of bucks off the unsuspecting, if that's what happened or could happen. I sure would hate to have my loved ones riding around unknowingly on that thing. If it broke and I didn't know the front end was cobbled together, I'd call the ambulance, lawyer, and the county prosecutor, right quick. If I wanted danger, my hobby wouldn't be this one. Just my 2 cents. Rollie
The good thing about this is Rodger is getting his money back.
royce; you might want to check out the cast/tube welded superbell droppped axles.. they are ductile steel castings welded to seamless tubing..thousands of hot rodders have put way more stress and milage than T's ever will...i think the rear lowering brackets for speedsters currently available are similar material..no bad comments on them...oh..forgot the cast 39-40 hotrod spindles and modern truck lowered uprights used widely..remember this is cast ductile steel..not cast iron..[this in no way supports the T axle guy..just a fyi]
If they are welded correctly, they are fine.
Ductile steel? Actually Dave the Superbell axle ends are a ductile iron plug that extends several inches into the tube. It is press fit into the tube, then plug welded.
The repro T axles above are butt welded, so the entire force of the car is concentrated at the weld joint. A very different situation from the Superbell tube axle where the press fit is taking the shear loads.
When 1" of 1/8" fillit weld is rated at 1200 pounds i would guess a 1/8" Spaced butt weld the section size of the axel 5 to 10,000 pounds?? Cast Steel Cast Steel Cast Steel!!! When you get in a press plant you will see tons of automation welded to press crowns but their made of Cast Steel Not Cast Iron! 20' up on a ladder hanging steel is a good place to learn to weld with either hand! Old and fat now but years ago i was a do"er instead of a talker! Bud. PS 7018?? Bud.
gosh..i've managed to collect a few left over parts [levers, pedals..] of the T100 project...i don't know much but i know ford CAST them out of something they think is as good as the original forged bits....anyone out there know the material??
welding aside, i assume ford cast the T100 front axles as well....
Well, it looks like not all folks thought the made up axel was crap. It went off at $860. Better than returning it for $700 I'd say. I wonder what a pair of 09 10 spindles and two repro axel forks is worth?
Maybe the high bidders wasn't aware of this discussion & thought it was an original, since all the description in the auction is: "This is a Dodge Brothers axle for a 1909 or a 1910 Model T. It is straight, not pitted, and the threads are in excellent shape. Buyer is responsible for all shipping costs."
No info added about repro castings or welding after the seller was made aware of that.
According to this discussion, the seller Roger Murphy, was going to return the axle to the manufacturer Glenn Johnson for a refund. It appears this did not take place as the auction was allowed to run to the end. The auction was not stopped nor was there notice inserted in the description that this axle is a fake. Had this discussion not taken place I would have bid on this axle as I need one for the car I am building. I wonder if the buyer knows it is a fake. This whole thing stinks.
Had I been selling the part, I would have certainly informed prospsective bidders about it being a made up piece. Its just the right thing to do. No bid deal to add to the desription. What if an unknowing buyer gets it then wants a refund, to which he is certainly entitled? Stuff like that would bother me.
Perhaps the seller informed bidders who inquired, but there may have been someone out there who wasn't aware the piece was made up. He should have added to the description. I agree, this whole thing stinks.
Here I go and will get all snockered up again for saying what I may wish to say.
I agree that a full disclosure should have been put on the site. Without knowing what went 'in' to the remake, it is scary to think of what it might do if used that way.
OK, so the way the concensus of this forum goes if more than 2 people report 'works for them' it seems that is then tacit approval of whatever was done. For those that follow that view, no need to read further.
For those that are curious on how it IS possible to use welded up parts as replacements for 'as forged' components in anything, even butt welded and flush finished parts, send me a private email and I will send you back 'the hows' for your information and libraries