Dating the car

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Dating the car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 03:43 pm:



My reference book says that Model T car numbers from 332501 to 539000 were produced from 1 Oct 13 to 31 Jul 14. If you take the difference of the two, you get 206449. Divide by 10 months to get 20,650 cars manufactured roughly every month.

My car's production number is 409023. Would it be safe to assume it came off the line sometime in mid January 1914?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 03:51 pm:

January 1914 started with 408348. More info here:
http://mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 04:19 pm:

I tried dating a car once. As much as I like Model T's, girls are a better choice for dating. :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 06:58 pm:

Henry
Thank you for saying something about the title because I always think I should say something about I loving my cars but would not consider dating a vehicle.
I might use the vehicle to help me get a date but like you I prefer humans - female humans - for dating especially when it is my wife :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

That engine was assembled on January 2nd 1914, late in the day on a Friday and following a holiday... you don't want that one, it probably won't last. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, October 14, 2015 - 08:48 pm:

As Derek posted above, your motor serial number corresponds to January 2, 1914.

There is no need to guess or extrapolate as Bruce McCalley has a complete listing of serial numbers by date in his black book and (I presume) his CD Rom.

Serial numbers assigned on January 2, 1914:

408,348 through 409,347.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Thursday, October 15, 2015 - 12:06 am:

Jesse,
On the FORDBARN website, you stated that the engine was stamped #346779. That engine would have been assembled on September 25, 1913. The other number, 409023 is probably the "car number", that is stamped on the brass plate on the firewall. There should also be a body number stamped into the wood frame under the driver's seat. A 1914 model has these three different numbers, and they will not be the same. If you have a title or registration for this car, it should have the engine number on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Thursday, October 15, 2015 - 12:38 pm:

Thanks fellas. That was helpful. I was wondering if the motor had been replaced by a 1913 motor at some point but if you're turning out 20,650 cars a month, it plausible that a September 25th engine would find its way into a January 2nd car.

Holy cow, Derek - this car probably was assembled on a hangover!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Thursday, October 15, 2015 - 01:00 pm:

>>>If you have a title or registration for this car, it should have the engine number on it.<<<

Hi Jim - You're correct about the numbers. I was confused about what constituted a serial number.
Thought it was the number on the brass plate. The engine number is indeed the "Identification number" on the title. Royce has tried helping me find the body number but it's not there. For what it's worth, the number on the back of the radiator on the Ford Motor Co. stamp is 0722640.

And yes, I'm dating a greasy broken down old temperamental relic of a by-gone era where all my money goes. And my Model T could use a little work too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, October 15, 2015 - 06:40 pm:

Jesse,

You seem to have a car from an interesting time frame, mid-July through September 1913. If the engine is stamped 346,779, your car is most likely a very early "1914 style" touring produced in the 1913 model year with a 1913 serial number.

These late 1913's, with the 1914 style touring bodies, have a number of peculiarities and I am interested to see if some of these differences show up in your car. I have one of these cars.

From early July 1913 through the end of the "1913" model year, serial number 348,735, Ford was assembling the new "1914 style" touring cars as well as the 1913 style touring with the square doors at the same time.

The Model T Ford book, by Bruce McCalley, shows what you have on page 176. However, yours used a "1913" serial numbered engine and was counted in the 1913 model year. My car also has a 1913 engine serial number, pre-348,736.

Please confirm the casting date on your engine.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 12:27 pm:

>>>Please confirm the casting date on your engine.<<<

Hi Ken -

The raised date stamp just to the right of the water intake is: 8 11 13

I assume that's Aug 11th and not Nov 8th.

This car has the rounded door corners. Can I provide you with photos of something specific?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill dugger on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 12:41 pm:

Henry: I just could not understand Jesse wanting to date a "T", when getting close to a girl is better, however the "T" wont talk back and say I have to stop and go to the toilet!

Just kidding Jesse, enjoy the bunch here as you will get a lot of good and funny answers but a lot of help no matter what the question is!!!!!!!!!
Down there where Henry lives is all flat land and grape, oranges figs and all the good stuf, and he may give you a good answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 01:02 pm:

Ken:

Are you confusing the model year with the fiscal year?

According to Bruce McCalley, the 1914 model year started August 1, 1913. The fiscal year started October 1, 1913.

Jesse's motor serial number corresponds with September 25, 1913 which is nearly two months into the 1914 model year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 02:54 pm:

Erik--

When did 1914 start? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 05:31 pm:

Erik,

Yes. Bruce said "August approximate" was the beginning of the 1914 model year and that is what I was talking about.

The early introduction of the 1914 style touring cars began the model year and it was brought about by troubles with the 1913 touring car bodies.

You are correct that 348,735 occurred at the end of the fiscal year 1913 and I should have said:

The 1914 style touring cars were being assembled prior to August 1st, serial number 320,616, and these early cars have some oddities not found in the later calendar year 1914's.

I have one of those July 1913 touring cars built with a 1914 style body and was curious if Jesse's car had some of those features.

A friend of mine has 336,XXX (September 2, 1913) and it is a 1913 style Wilson bodied touring car.

The touring car "Production Total" for the fiscal year 1913 listed on page 141 of Bruce's book, 126,715 cars, includes Jesse's 1914 style, my 1914 style and 336,XXX which is a 1913 style.

I guess we don't know the "end" of the 1913 serial numbers, or the "beginning" of the 1914 serial numbers.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 10:46 am:

>>>Serial numbers assigned on January 2, 1914: 408,348 through 409,347.<<<

Hi Eric - When you say serial number, you're talking about the engine number. Is that right?

My engine number is: 346779.

The car number on the brass plate on the dashboard/firewall is: 409023.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 10:58 am:

>>>I guess we don't know the "end" of the 1913 serial numbers, or the "beginning" of the 1914 serial numbers.<<<

I guess what you're talking about is the ambiguity between the fiscal year and the production year.

If it's any help, my reference book "From Here To Obscurity" by Ray Miller and Bruce McCalley list the last numbers on Sep 30th, 1913 as:
Motor No. 370,147
Car No. 332,500.

With the car number being 409023, this caused me to think someone may have replaced the original motor with an earlier engine along the way.

But this is pretty interesting, Ken. Are you saying we own some kind of "tweener" ie a 1913 model with a 1914 body built between Jul 1st and Sep 30th 1913?

List those peculiarities for me and if it's visible to the naked eye, I'll check it out and provide a photo or three.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 11:03 am:

Does your car have '13 fenders? The very early ones did. Your car number on the dashboard is much later than the engine number. Usually, it's the other way around. Usually the car number is several thousand before the engine number. Interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 02:13 pm:

>>>Does your car have '13 fenders?<<<



To tell you the truth, Larry, from looking at my picture book, I can't tell the difference between '13 and '14 fenders.

The front fenders don't have that big droopy lip like the '15s do (or the '12s for that matter). The rear fenders are straight, not rounded like the '15s and they have that same raised bead around the upper perimeter for a stiffer structure and a stylish appearance.

There are four rivets holding each fender to the mounting bracket. Apparently, they went to three rivets in 1915. So, yeah, they could be either 1913 or 14 fenders as far as I can tell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 05:10 pm:

Jesse,

The 1913 style fender has no bead across the wide part of the fender nor on the triangular apron that attaches at the engine sill.

Other features that you may see in calendar 1913 are pipe plugs on the engine, long smooth rear cross member used on late 1913 style cars, additional beading on the rear touring tub, two piece drive shaft, 1913 style front fenders, no beading on the inner rear fender panels.

A lot can happen and be changed in one hundred years. Get a copy of Bruce's book. The differences we are talking about don't have anything to do with the fun the cars provide but it is interesting trivia.

Fred- The 1914 touring car production began in July 1913:



Beaudette, sometimes called Pontiac, furnished some of the early 1914 style touring car bodies in July 1913.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 08:07 pm:

Henry Ford was too busy making cars, factories, and money at that time for him to try to make it easy for us a hundred years later to tell exactly what was right when.
The fact is, most of the changes, both big and small had a considerable crossover time when both old and new type were being used and sold. It was that way throughout model T Ford production. But it was probably worse through the brass era than any of the later cars.

I recently posted this photo of a 1914 door that I bought a couple years ago, hoping it may fit my '15 runabout better than the door I had for it. When I bought it, I didn't look closely at the paint, figured it had been repainted at some time, and didn't even think about it might be too early for my car.
The green at the top of the door clearly is newer, and poorly brushed on. However, the blue paint looks like it may be original. There are even traces of the blue on the wood under the remnants of the original upholstery.
This begs the question. Was this door off of an early '14 "style" touring built late in '13 "model" year when they were still painting cars blue? I don't claim to know the whole answer. But I have seen and heard of a few '14s that were claimed as originally blue before restoration.
The blue appears heavily weathered.



Original photos have been seen showing '13 and '14 styles of bodies and windshields mixed up. Yes, they could have been changed early on after damage was somehow done? But it is also very likely that many cars left the factory that way. Front fenders also appear to be inconsistent around style and model year changeover time.

Jesse A, Yours looks like a wonderful model T! Enjoy it. I hope to see many more pictures of it as you go along.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Sunday, October 18, 2015 - 10:11 am:

>>>...pipe plugs on the engine...<<<

Hey Ken - I'm not sure what you mean by pipe plugs. Please elaborate. Can you make them out in these photos?




The driveshaft appears to be one piece from the transmission to the differential but I'm not sure what "long smooth rear cross members" your talking about. Is that the rods holding the running boards up or something to do with the body?





The tub is beaded on the rear with two verticals and an outline around the rear "quarter panels." There is no bead on the triangular fender apron that attaches at the engine sill but you can see from photo above, there's a horizontal where the body meets the engine compartment.

Like Wayne has alluding to, I bet a lot of leftovers parts were used at the beginning of a production year. I'm going to look for that book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Sunday, October 18, 2015 - 10:51 am:

Hi Wayne - I'm familiar with that color.

While changing tires, I've been restoring the wheels a little like sanding and staining the spokes and when scraping several layers of paint off the hubs, there is what appears to be a light power blue. Can you make it out?



I thought it may have been a primer but maybe the car was painted like that.

The reason I've been trying to place the car in time is I've been thinking about, among other things, a paint scheme typical of the time frame.

My understanding is that for the first few years of the Model T, black wasn't even an option. Red, green, blue and gray were the choices until late in the 1914 production year when everything went to black.

The blue was a dark blue however, so I wonder if what we perceive as power blue today was really a light grey that has oxidized over the years.

At this point, I'm going with a midnight blue on the hood and body tub with black fenders, splash aprons and running boards. As far as I can tell, that was a common two tone paint scheme early in the 1914 production year. I'll leave the wheel spokes, dashboard and steering wheel in a natural stain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 09:05 am:

Oops - Correction. I just noticed I wrote "power" blue above a couple of times when I meant "powder" blue as in pale light blue.

There doesn't appear to be an "Edit" function on this forum so we're made to live with our mistakes - just like life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 09:14 am:

There is an "edit" function for your recent posts. Go to your profile and make sure that the feature to display your most recent posts is activated. Once it is activated, you will see a list of your recent posts. If the post has a pencil displayed in one of the left columns, click on it and you will be able to edit the text in that post. :-)

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 09:57 am:

Jesse,

Dark blue was a color used on closed cars through about 1916. Open cars such as your touring were painted black beginning in late calendar year 1912.

Wayne's photo of a door shows a blue non - Ford color. If there is baby blue paint on your wheels or any other part of your car that is also not original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 10:06 am:

Jesse, I don't see an answer to your question about pipe plugs. That would be cold plugs, or freeze plugs. In the early T engines they were " pipe plugs. In your first engine picture above I think that's what I see peeking out from between the manifolds.

The blue on these cars was so dark that they had to be in direct sunlight for it to be seen as blue. Here's what Bruce had to say about that.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 11:38 am:

Jesse,

Great pictures on your car.

You do have a "pipe plug" engine, a 1913 calendar year feature. As Steve has noted, the center plug is visible with the square hole in it. Unlike the flat plugs which are pressed into a recess, they were screwed into the block.

There are three of them but the center one is the easiest to see. These were changed to a flat plug and were no longer used shortly after your engine was assembled in 1913. The following note is in the Encyclopedia on this site.



The 1/2" pipe plug had been used since 1908 and the purpose was to close up three access holes required during the casting process. They have nothing to do with freeze protection.

The four ball Kingston is also correct for your car. I have one on mine and it works great.

Who made the body on your car Jesse?
There will be a letter at the top of the heel kick panel, front or rear. Maybe a "B" or "W" and it will be about an inch tall.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 08:03 pm:

>>>If the post has a pencil displayed in one of the left columns, click on it and you will be able to edit the text in that post.<<<

Hi Mark - Thanks for the heads up.

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on October 19, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 08:24 pm:

>>>In the early T engines they were " pipe plugs.<<<

Hey Steve - Did I hear where someone used vintage nickels he got from a coin collector to plug those holes?

If I remember the story correctly, he got Indian head nickels that were minted the year of the car.

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on October 19, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, October 19, 2015 - 08:34 pm:

>>>Who made the body on your car Jesse?<<<

It's a "B" Ken. And by the way, there is no raised bead on the inner fender fairings front or back.

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on October 19, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Tuesday, October 20, 2015 - 01:44 pm:

Jesse,

Beaudette, sometimes called Pontiac, was the body builder. They supplied some of the very first 1914 style bodies.

Getting back to your original question of the thread, there is only one "date" that was actually applied to your car as it was being built. It is on the transmission stub shaft and will appear like this:



That date was put on the transmission stub shaft when the transmission was built and will be about a week or so before the September 25, 1913, serial number date. The serial number associated with that 7 11 13 stub shaft date was on an engine "built" in Bruce's Book on 7-17-13.

You cannot see that date until you pull the engine apart but it will tend to confirm your engine/transmission is an "as built" at the factory unit.

From this information, the car with "7-11-13 transmission" in it cannot be built before that date.

Ken in Texas

(Message edited by drkbp on October 20, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Tuesday, October 20, 2015 - 03:02 pm:

The cylinder head and engine block each have a casting date. The body had one stamped in the wood, and each rear axle housing half also has a casting date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Wednesday, October 21, 2015 - 09:13 am:

Royce,

Is the casting date on the rear axle housing on the outside where it can be seen?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, October 23, 2015 - 09:18 am:

Royce,

Casting dates to be found, calendar year 1913.

I believe it has been discussed that the cylinder heads only had a "month and day" cast on them, correct?

The block is straight forward with a "month, day, year".

On the rear axle housing halves, I can only find the "factory number", 2835 (right side), and 2836 (left). There is also a single number about 1/2" high on each half but no casting date that I can see.

I would like to find it if it's visible on the exterior but only have my car to look at. Thanks.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, October 23, 2015 - 07:15 pm:

>>>The cylinder head and engine block each have a casting date.<<<

Howdy Royce - On my cylinder head cover at the back end under the coil box, readable from the cockpit are the raised digits: 2____6. Meanwhile, on the cylinder head cover just behind the radiator intake on the front end is the raised number: 10.

Is this what you and Ken are discussing?

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on October 23, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, October 23, 2015 - 09:27 pm:

I am not the expert on this, but I believe from what I have read before that the "2____6" is February sixth. They did not bother at that time to put the year into the casting date on heads. The number "10" should be any one of several mold or pattern numbers that were used, these kept changing (I have seen several different numbers, and even a few letters in different locations). Both of these were used to track back to the mold and patterns in the event that errors or defectives were found in order to make corrections and eliminate further waste.
Since it has been effectively argued that the numbers at the back of the head are the casting date, and no year was given, it is just speculation that because the foundry was working only about a week or two ahead of assembly, that the years was simply not needed for tracking purposes.
Me, trying to answer questions and not muddy the waters too much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 09:35 am:

Wayne is correct. The number 10 is the mold number.

I don't have a photo handy but 1913 - 1914 rear axle housings usually have a date code cast right next to where the pinion housing attaches. With the rear axle in the car you have to be under the car looking towards the rear to see the date and maker's cartouche.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 12:37 pm:

Royce,

Thank you for the location. There are numbers cast right in that spot but it is not a date. Mine has the factory number T-2853 cast in the part.



The "8" must be a mold number because the other side has a "2". I didn't find it but there is probably a DB cartouche somewhere because a lot of parts on this car were Dodge Bros.

I looked at Bruce's Book and he has the factory number as 2835? Thanks.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 12:55 pm:

Ken,

Yes, some do and some don't. There are at least three makers. Some that are Dodge Brothers, some Triangle cartouche, some with no maker's mark like yours which may be made in house at Highland Park.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 07:26 pm:

>>>The Model T Ford book, by Bruce McCalley, shows what you have on page 176.<<<

Greetings folks - I ordered McCalley's book, Ken. The Model T Ford: The Car That Changed the World.
Is that the one you're referring to above on Oct 17th when we were talking about 13/14 overlap anomalies? The reason I asked is I noticed McCalley's has a Model T Encyclopedia also.

I took a trip underneath the car today with a notepad and solvent soaked rag to look at the differential, Royce. It's difficult for me to make out the raised script now but it looks like it might have been:

7MI
T2869

I could be wrong about some of the digits but it occurs to me the 7 could be what's left of a triangle and maybe MI is for Michigan. Am I in the ballpark?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 10:06 am:

>>>Does your car have '13 fenders? The very early ones did.<<<

Hi Larry -

According to the Snyder's catalog that expires March 2016, I do. On page T-69, my front fenders are listed as: 1913 FRONTS (LATE). On the top of next page: 1913 HACK REARS. At least that's the closest drawing I see other than 1912 REAR ROADSTERS. Check 'em out. Looks like the same rear fender.

http://tinyurl.com/q66v4hf

http://owlshead.org/assets/70/13fordtl__medium.jpg

I'm still scratching my head about what Ken meant by "long smooth rear cross members." I'm still a novice here so nothing is obvious to me. My McCalley Model T book is in the mail, however.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 10:31 am:

7 = Day of Month
M = December (I is not used in the casting date calendar)
1 = shift, first shift

That casting was made December 7, first shift, of an undetermined year, but most likely 1913.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 08:58 pm:

Jesse,

When you get Bruce's Book, look on page 164 (top right) for the long rear cross member. It replaced the small cast bracket body mounts in about March/April of 1913.

The ends are relatively smooth on the early ones, and not raised where the body mounts as they are on later rear cross members.

Also, does your touring body have the full bead along the bottom edge of the center rear back panel? It looks like it is there in one of your photos.

7MI ??, snap a picture if you can. TW?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 01:04 pm:

>>>Also, does your touring body have the full bead along the bottom edge of the center rear back panel?<<<

It does.

>>>7MI ??, snap a picture if you can. TW?<<<

So I took another trip under my car today. I packed a lunch, a change of clothes and grabbed some extra cash. I was prepared for anything.

I'm sure it's a "7" and not a "T". One side of the differential is the 7M1.

Hard to make out but the other side is 7M6.


(Message edited by jesselashcraft on October 27, 2015)

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on October 27, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 10:16 pm:

While pulling the engine and transmission for a makeover, I discover this switch out of sight below the coil box. One wire went to ground (the same coil post goes to a screw on the hogshead cover plate) and the other wire is broken off. The switch itself is a simple pull/push type.

Anyone have any idea what this might have been used for? After market accessory? I don't see any evidence that electric running lights were once mounted anywhere on this machine. No indication of a dashboard mounted speedometer light. What could it be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 - 10:51 pm:

Theft prevention.
Your car, my car, all Ts with a coil box mounted switch use the same ignition key. Add a hidden switch, such as you show, into the magneto circuit and the ignition is disabled. My two cents worth, perhaps overvalued. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Thursday, November 12, 2015 - 09:22 am:

>>>Theft prevention.<<<

Interesting, Bill.

I've seen mechanisms to lock the crank in place with a padlock but a hidden kill switch would be a clever application.

It has the added value of wearing the thief out trying to start the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 06:32 am:

Jesse, here is what I found on the axle housing of my March, 1914 T. It appears to have the same 7 M like yours but mine is 7 M 13. Royce, you say that the 7 is for the day, the M is for the month (December) and the 1 is for the first shift, but what would my 13 stand for?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 09:10 am:

What's the story on those screws?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 09:27 am:

I took the housings completely apart and just used the screws as a temporary hold until I could re-rivet them back together (thanks to Jerry Van and his mighty hammer!).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 11:18 pm:

>>>That date was put on the transmission stub shaft when the transmission was built and will be about a week or so before the September 25, 1913, serial number date.<<<

Hi Ken -

The Ford car number on the dashboard brass plate: 409023
The stamped engine serial number: 346779
The raised block casting date: 8 11 13
And today, the stub shaft transmission date stamp: 2 7 14

Royce tried to help me find the body date but it's not there. There are a couple of holes
where it should be, however. I wonder if that date might have been stamped on a metal plate that's long gone.

This car must have had some major component changes in its life. What other explanation is there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 05:04 pm:

>>>...long smooth rear cross member used on late 1913 style cars...<<<

I finally got around to figuring out that I do have the long smooth rear cross member as shown on page 164 of McCalley's reference book.

Also Royce, after I removed the top to trailer the carcass to the paint shop, and the overhead shop lights were shining directly on the seat area, I found the Beaudette body date. Can you make it out? I wasn't even looking for it and I glanced askance at the area and noticed a "4". I guess the light was just right. Upon closer inspection, I could barely make out a "14" and after rubbing the wood with a rag, the date and body number appeared: 1 14 70535

The imprint is almost gone and barely discernible. I think I'll go after it with an awl or box cutters or some kind of carving tool to give those numbers some relief. I bet I looked at that goddamn piece of wood a dozen times and never saw a thing until I took the top off the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 12:29 am:

If you are still dating the car after all these months? Hopefully it is a nice long-term relationship.

"This car must have had some major component changes in its life. What other explanation is there?"
That could not ever happen in a hundred plus years? Could it? Regardless, it looks like a good solid brass era T that you should be able to enjoy for years to come!
And Happy New Year!
Drive carefully, and do enjoy that car! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 10:02 am:

Bill,

The only thing that would make sense is 7M = December 7 and 13 = 1913.

Jesse that seems like it means January 1914. You might try using some paint stripper to remove the old paint without sanding. That way the number will still be there when it gets repainted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 10:46 am:

Jessee,

Thanks for the update on this early 1914 style touring car.

The bead along the bottom of your rear tub was being used on Beaudette bodies dated, or ordered, as late as January 1914.

Does anyone have a September 1913 Beaudette bodied touring car with a "9-13-XXXX" date on it?

Since engine blocks were not numbered prior to assembly into a complete unit, the transmission was a very early change out.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 11:39 am:

Seems to me the transmission stamping of 2 7 14 (February 7, 1914) means that the transmission likely came in that car originally since the body was manufactured some time in January 1914. A very close fit in terms of time.

The block date and serial number are from months earlier. Likely replaced in an earlier restoration or repair. In any case I would use the block if it is good. It is an authentic 1914 model year block after all.

(Message edited by royce on December 31, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 11:20 am:

>>>That could not ever happen in a hundred plus years? Could it?<<<

Hi Wayne - Yes, of course it could!

I gave up on the notion of showing this car about $6,000 ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 09:45 am:

Hey fellas -

My mutt came with a Sears Cross speedometer instrument but with Stewart gears and mechanism on the wheel.

So I got the parts necessary (Ford Special gear and mechanism). An extra hub with the appropriate flange the gear rides against came with the car. So I'm rigging up a new hub to accommodate the speedometer because the current hub doesn't have the appropriate flange or lip for the gear to ride on.

I got the Wheel Spacer Screw Set with three wood screws and "brass spacers for mounting the road gear to the spokes."

But the spacers hold the road gear away from the lip.

Those spacers need to be trimmed down so the gear rides up against the hub lip, right?



(Message edited by jesselashcraft on January 10, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 09:52 am:

The spacers are not needed with the Ford Special wheel gear installation.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 11:16 am:

>>>The spacers are not needed with the Ford Special wheel gear installation.<<<

Yeah, that's what I was thinking but they are called spacers.

Hey Royce - I found this "oh by the way" in the Model T encyclopedia online.

If someone should ask me why I painted a 1914 midnight blue with black fenders, I'm pulling this reference out and saying "I've been known to live on the edge."

"COLORS: All cars were painted black, with black fenders. (Factory cost books indicate that touring bodies were painted blue until October, 1914.)"

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1914.htm



(Message edited by jesselashcraft on January 10, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 02:29 pm:

Jesse,

What does the road gear and hub look like?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 10:12 am:

>>>What does the road gear and hub look like?<<<

Here's a good shot of the hub showing the flange that the gear rides against:


Royce's photo above shows the Ford special road gear which I ordered from the catalog. Here's the extra hub with the larger Stewart gear:


The Stewart road gear and mechanism is incompatible with the Sears Cross speedometer instrument that came with the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 08:13 pm:

Jesse,

I was curious if your road gear was a Stewart 8685 or 11077. Both are 60 tooth 8 pitch.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Tuesday, January 12, 2016 - 11:26 am:

Hi Ken - It's a 11077. As you probably already know, the mechanism rides ahead of the axle instead of behind it like the Ford Special.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, January 12, 2016 - 01:03 pm:

Jesse,

The Stewart swivel assembly reduces the output from the gear by a ratio of 2 1/2 to 1. This won't work with the Sears Cross speedometer, which requires the cable speed to be 1:1.

You need the Ford Special direct drive as shown in my photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Tuesday, January 12, 2016 - 02:19 pm:

Jesse,

Nice Stewart parts to hang onto if you ever want to go back with the Stewart Model 100 speedometer setup. You have everything except the cable and head.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Tuesday, January 12, 2016 - 04:14 pm:

>>>This won't work with the Sears Cross speedometer, which requires the cable speed to be 1:1.<<<

I hear ya. I bought Furstnow's book on speedometers trying to figure out where I'm at. This car is sort of a mutt. I wonder if someone actually tried hooking up a Sears Cross speedometer to a Stewart gear. They would have pegged that needle at 80 and it only goes to 60!

I think the Stewart swivel drive mounting bracket may be for a 1920 or later.


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