Rebuilt Carburetor Musings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Rebuilt Carburetor Musings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David M. Coleman - Grand Marais, MN on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 03:51 pm:

Have narrowed some performance issues to either carburetor and/or fuel delivery issues.

Considering purchasing a rebuilt Holley NH for my '23 Touring. In looking at the usual vendors, some things are interesting/startling.

Lang's:
Rebuilt: $109 + core

Mac's:
Rebuilt: $207 + core
FULL rebuild kit: $69
New: $366

Bob's:
Rebuilt: $160 + core
New: $295

Snyder's:
Rebuilt $110 + core

Texas T's:
New: $272

Are the 'rebuilds' somehow superior at the (always) $$$$ place? Texas T's points out that you should replace the float valve if you want their 'new' unit to function properly. Some rebuilds seem to use Grose Valves, some not. This is all over the map!

Curious for others experiences.

Thnx, d


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 04:26 pm:

For the difference in price, it would be interesting to find the source of the rebuilding and just what was done.

Otherwise, someone is trying to gouge someone.

However, it all depends. We used to have a lumber and hardware store in town and when they would get in new supplies, they would put price tags on them. When the price went up they didn't re-price shelf stock. So if you looked at all the tags, sometimes you could find a bargain. Anyway, it could be that the supplier raised the price and some are selling old stock.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 04:47 pm:

I would send it to Russ Potter. He charges $120 I think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 06:14 pm:

I do my own but if that was out of the question I'd send it to a "person" as opposed to a "company". I'll bet more than one of the suppliers is getting their re-builts from the same place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 06:54 pm:

Charlie B. is right on. They are easy to rebuild, but if you're not confident that you can do it, send it to an individual, not a company with overhead, staff, etc., which are included in the price. Or, get the MTFCA Carburetor rebuilding book, study up, and go for it. Do not use the Grose-jet float valve. Lang's stocks the one made by RV Anderson, which is the good one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 07:08 pm:

David,

I rebuild them or you can come down and do it with me.

Contact me via email or phone. I sent you a private message. My phone number is there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 09:13 pm:

Not to rain on anybody's product or parade but every needle I have seen in the last year or two sold by all the vendors needs the tip reground if it is going to hold. I have a dozen or so from Lang's, some from Snyders and some from Chaffins in stock. This watermelon has been thumped before and there are several threads about it if you look back. The tips are NOT being ground, they are being turned on a lathe and are NOT smooth enough to hold today's gasoline without considerable work on them.

I have a couple hundred bucks worth of them in my parts drawers from various suppliers and they all look like this. Fortunately I don't do many NH's and it's possible somebody is actually addressing what the vendors are selling but this is what they looked like when I took these pictures in January 2015. I have a setup on my valve grinder to grind them with a 2000 grit stone concentric to the center line and at the angle that will hold against the pressure and still release. It also appears that most of the seats are just being drilled and reamed and not countersunk so the seat has to be formed or the needle will not hold.

Also, the fiber washer some of the vendors supply is so hard there is no way to get it to quit leaking around the base, which is cast iron and needs a softer gasket to seal against it than a brass-on-brass gasket.

By the way, I think Potter does all the ones for Snyders as the ones I've seen from them have his "P" stamped on the flange. The others -- I dunno. I do not do any for any vendors. I have so much business on brass carbs I can't keep up and won't do the NH rebuilds for the $50 the vendors want to pay to have them done.









Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David M. Coleman - Grand Marais, MN on Sunday, October 25, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

Thanks all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, October 25, 2015 - 09:08 pm:

Stan, those almost look like they've been plunge cut with a form tool. Would the seat benefit by being swaged? I recall doing high pressure (10,000 psi) check valves this was in a hydraulic application.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, October 25, 2015 - 09:09 pm:

This way not was.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, October 25, 2015 - 10:15 pm:

And swedge not swage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, October 25, 2015 - 10:24 pm:

Why do you think you need a new or rebuilt carburetor? Is gas getting to it? If so then what symptoms do you have?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 12:20 am:

The NH is a very simple carb to rebuild if you drill out all the passages and re-seal them as well as repair any shaft wear issues and insure that the float is good. Getting the original seat out can be difficult and finding a quality replacement may be difficult as well. If you don't feel up to doing it, Russ Potter is the guy to see. I've dealt with him for many years and he knows them inside-out, as well, he is a great guy to deal with. Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 06:58 am:

I have noted the same problem when looking at those tips with a jeweler's loop.

The tips work OK after spun in a lathe and polished with 1200 and then 2000 grit emery paper.

The last 8 carbs rebuilt by a friend, with those new needle valves, all leaked and had to be redone.

I just help him sometimes with his problems.

I first noted the actual problem when rebuilding my rubberized carb from the new gas damage.

They are advertised as original style replacements, but the originals must have been made smoother somehow.

The contact surface area inside has no matching tapered surface area either, in a lot of those.

That problem appears to have been corrected in some of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 07:07 am:

The word is SWAGE

Merriam Webster:

noun \ˈswj, ˈswej\

Definition of SWAGE

: a tool used by metalworkers for shaping their work by holding it on the work or the work on it and striking with a hammer or sledge


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 08:13 am:

I mentioned in a post above that RV Anderson makes the needle & seat kits for the NH. I must have had a brain fart; RV makes those parts for the Holley G, not the NH. I've used his parts when rebuilding G's, and they work fine. Sorry for the mis-info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 09:20 am:

Then too, after tapering that inside area and using a Dremel tool to polish the surface, we did tap the needle valve and use it for a SWAGE tool, as the stainless steel is much harder than the brass and showed no damage from the tap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 11:55 am:

You should not have to work on them to get them to perform as intended. I don't believe the vendors don't know about this problem as there have been problems for at least two or three years with the lousy quality of these. All that has to happen is for the vendors to return them to whoever is supplying them and refuse to pay for them and the quality will improve.

There are still hundreds of thousands of carburetor rebuild kits produced for virtually every carburetor ever made from the 40's to the 90's when fuel injection took over. You can buy a $14.95 kit for a Ford tractor carburetor that has a perfectly ground needle valve that holds and works for years. You can buy kits for Quadrajets, Holleys - whatever you want - right over the counter at any parts store. Some have Viton tips but most will still have ground needles. There is no reason for the NH needles not to be made correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 12:09 pm:

James I don't know what tips you are using but some of them are Stainless steel and some are not. Stainless will not take as fine a finish as tool steel -- just try sharpening a Stainless blade in a pocket knife compared to a tool steel blade. The tips, if made correctly, are made from tool steel or drill rod. Drill rod is higher carbon and will rust or at least discolor whereas tool steel will not rust as readily nor discolor as much.

Mike, you are right, they look like they are plunge cut as opposed to being CNC cut as CNC leaves a spiral dross and plunge cutting does not.

I have had a couple PM's from people telling me to just lap them in with whatever their favorite is. The problem with doing that is that you are creating a surface set that will seal until there is wear. Once there is wear on the needle tip it will no longer seal.

I got a little bag of NOS needles from Bob MacDonald along with some other NH parts. I hoarded them pretty carefully -- to the point I couldn't find them for a long time. They are made in two parts. A brass body with an added tool steel tip. If I get time I'll post a photo of some of them.

I make or re-make quite a few N/S sets for oddball carbs that I don't have an exact replacement for. I have a setup on my SnapOn valve grinder for grinding the tips and ground some swages for setting the seat angles that match the tip angle. It's easier to get the old ones to hold than dig through all the stuff I have trying to find one that fits.

Also, thanks to the people who asked but I simply don't have time to work on these for other people. Yell at the vendors and somebody will start making NH sets that work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 04:45 pm:

I have never had to replace an NH needle and seat. I polish the original needle in a drill press then set it in the seat with a light tap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 05:20 pm:

Are you doing them commercially? Doing it for yourself and getting it to work is one thing, doing them for money and sending them half way around the world to somebody who paid to have it done and expects it to be perfect right out of the box is another. The other aspect of it is time. My time in the shop is more valuable than a $12.00 needle and seat set if I can put it in and have it work without having to fool with it. If they worked as they should right out of the package it would be a five minute deal to put in a new needle and seat.

Everybody does it their own way and we all have our own priorities, most of the time mine is to get this one done and in a box and start on the next one. A lot of people in this hobby have nothing to do and all day to do it since they are retired.

I have been off work for a few days again, spent about half of today on the phone, it's 3:30; I'd better get to work or I will be here until midnight again. Probably will be whether I drink a cup of coffee or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 05:44 pm:

Stan, I do not know what metal is in the valve point, but a magnet does not attract to it, it shows no rust, and is very hard to polish, so it kind of looks and acts like stainless steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 05:50 pm:

The new ones are but they shouldn't be. They should be tool steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Mettling - Dayton OH on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 06:24 pm:

I went through 3 synders carbs before it performed as intended


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, October 26, 2015 - 06:50 pm:

You were lucky!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coleman-Grand Marais MN/Detroit MI on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 08:17 pm:

A big shout out to Andy Loso. He rebuilt my carb and the workmanship appears to be excellent. He was in constant e-mail contact with updates and questions. And his price was very competitive and fair.


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