**1921-1927 Exhaust/Muffler Assembly**

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: **1921-1927 Exhaust/Muffler Assembly**
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 06:43 pm:

This is the original muffler assembly as it assembles to the exhaust pipes that Larry Smith has reproduced.



The are Ford Catalog part numbers. You'll notice that in two places the bolts and nuts make up a separate assembly. There was no way to show this within the drawing itself because of their location so I broke them out with their assembly number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, December 18, 2015 - 11:26 am:

Great illustration Martin. Maybe those who don't know what the late exhaust systems look like will now, in addition the photos David Dewey posted a couple of weeks ago. For those who have already purchased an exhaust pipe, I should have some 4032 retainer plates soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, December 18, 2015 - 03:49 pm:

Larry,
Early or late 4032s?
(Kind of an inside joke, both will do the job--and no one will ever see it unless they take the muffler apart!)(Inside pun intended!)
:-)
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Friday, December 18, 2015 - 05:17 pm:

Martin & Larry,
Great work as usual Martin !!

Larry, I wonder if Martin would be interested in doing a drawing of the 1921 Canadian Exhaust System I emailed you last.
Also, you and I know there were variations on the 4040C Rear Muffler Head by the end of production in 1927.
Like most of the drawings Martin does, there are always little differences that Forum members come up with.
Not sure if he wants to go to such detail ?
The article in the Vintage Ford September - October 2011 documents a lot of the changes.

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 02:38 am:

John of course I do, send me any pictures you've got on any changes that were made through 1927.

David, what's the difference between early and late 4032? The one I've got here is the one I found in McCalley's book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n Los Angeles CA on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 03:05 am:

Some ting has me perplexed, 4026C show a little bigger hole ?? And shouldn't 4037 C be shown in place with shell wrapped around the ends so we know the assembly ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 03:22 am:

Follow the centerline George, it shows how it goes together. That end piece of 4037C goes all the way through 4026C to butt in the rear plate 4040C. The big washer goes over the bolt (that you've pre-assembled into the pipe) and then the nut (lock washer optional, but probably a good idea), goes on last. The hole in 4026C is the same diameter as the exterior of 4037C pipe (actually it's probably .005-.010 bigger than the pipe for clearance tolerance). This effectively sandwiches the muffler assembly between the welded bead on 4037C and the end plate nut at the back of 4040C. Thus making the pipe an integral part of the muffler assembly...it's a pretty slick set up when you think about. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 06:17 am:

Great work :-)
Here's a thread discussing the Canadian version of the muffler also seen in some overseas markets: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/209068.html?1308129197


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 07:50 am:

Rodger, if I'm reading this right, the front plate is supposed to be 4026B and it has a collar on it. But this one looks like it's got some sort of bolt bridge inside it which would either mean the pipes bolt mounts to it or there is some inner shell that mounts to it, yet allows the pipe to go all the way through to the rear plate 4040B.

The pipe 4037B has no bead on like 4037C does. There is a cotter pin that goes through that collar and the pipe and holds the plate in place, rather that butting up against a bead, like with 4037C. Somethings goofy here, because 4026 number is always a front plate as 4040 number is always a rear plate. Yet 4026B looks like a rear plate with a mounting bridge in it.

Looking at the pictures of the cars with the muffle on it you can see they are mounted with a single nut coming out the back. I think the picture of 4026B is incorrect, it wont, not with that bolt bridge in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 09:32 am:

Martin: All you have to do is look at your own illustration to see how it goes! 4037B is used on cars prior to 1921, and is 12" shorter! I invited you to come down for a live demonstration, but so far you haven't done so!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 10:19 am:

For folks in the Valley, Lomita is on the other side of the planet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 11:35 am:

Martin: great work but I have a few suggestions that I think would make it look a little better.
- 3514 nut and washer looks out of scale (too small) compared to the rest of the end cap and pipe. Bolt 3074 and nut also look too small compared to the muffler.
- The hole in the front of the muffler (4026C) looks to be out of proportion compared to the middle and outer shells.

Just my two cents. Otherwise fabulous as usual.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kirk Peterson on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 12:07 pm:

Sylmar is the northern most burb in the city of Angels. Back when you were a kid Steve going over the hill wasn't that time consuming as it is now.
Even Negotiating the valleys surface streets during rush hour now is an ordeal.

Great work Martin. With your drawing I now understand what Larry's been saying about the exhaust pipe.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 02:43 pm:

Martin, I have sent you a P.M.

Best regards, John Page, Australia.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 03:21 pm:

Martin,
OK,I guess I can tell the "secret" between the early 4032 and the late one, and as I mentioned, no one will ever see it, unless they take your muffler apart. The early piece is made from a piece of U channel, it looks like a forged one. The later piece is just flat steel, about 1/8" thick, if my memory is right--I'm certain that Larry has the exact specs.
the one thing about Larry's pipes that isn't EXACTLY the way Ford made them, is the upset that holds the front plate. Ford used an "electric upset" where the pipe was heated to red hot by an electrical unit right at that location, then the pipe was pressed together from the ends to make it "squish" out to from the ridge. Larry's pipes are made by flaring the ends of a pipe a little, then welding them together. A very nice welding job, BTW. If you are really finicky, you can dress down the weld with a little filing and sanding and no one will ever see the difference.
If you are making thousands of pipes, it's affordable to set up the electrical upset tooling; but for smaller production runs, Larry's method is quite clever and works just fine.
Will be interesting to see how the Canadians did it, Looking forward to your drawings, Martin!
Oh, BTW, when assembling the muffler, you need to put on the front 4026C piece before putting in the 4032 and its bolt, lock & nut as the ends stick out of the pipe just a little bit (unless you bother to grind them down, but it's just easier to remember to put the end piece on first).
I suppose at some time you'll want to show the variations on the end cap (4040-C etc.); if memory serves me (and often it doesn't!)the variations are mostly location of the outlet hole & I think there's one where the the hole isn't completely stamped out, and forms a deflector?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 03:43 pm:

"So much to learn so little time" I worked for major corporation doing cost reduction. I'm beginning to believe Henry's engineer's would have put us to sham.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 12:08 am:

Larry, sorry I haven't come down there, but I don't have a car at the moment...my engine is in pieces all over the floor of my garage. The other car (07 Saturn, belongs to my MIL) is for driving my MIL (Mother In-Law) around to doctors appointments, stores and little errands and such and she cant really spare it for too awful long, so the car I drive is the touring, which is now laid up. I was hoping to get my car up and running before the new year, but now that really doesn't look too promising...

David, I know what an electric upset is, but now that you've explained that Larry flared the ends of the pipe and welded the crown of the joint, that's better than what I thought he meant. It's not a bead at all in fact it wouldn't be all that different from the electric upset. In fact such a weld as the one you described would require no filler at all, probably an automatic orbital welder of some sort (three companies come to mind, whose machines could do that sort of work easily).

I think you're all getting confused by my question because I'm asking about the Canadian muffler. As far as I can tell instead of the upset, the muffler front plate and the pipe are held together with either one or two (the picture isn't really that clear) cotter pins, that runs through a collar of sorts on the front of the plate. But the aft plate hook up is exactly the same as on the American cars, with the exception that the exhaust opening points down and not to the differential case. Seems a better idea to me anyway to point the exhaust down rather than where it is on American cars. My car I put an extension on it to point over the rear axle and down, like on a modern car.

Thomas, the nut and washer are based upon the square of the carriage bolt from the muffler. To make the nut and washer larger I'd have to make the bolt and the square in the anchor plate larger as well. The amount of enlargement is a proportional problem to that anchor plate and I'm not sure I could enlarge it enough that you'd notice much difference anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 01:00 am:

Martin, I don't know what picture you are referring to showing the cotter pin locating the front muffler plate, but fossil evidence I have seen on old parts on our Canadian sourced cars indicates that a large split pin,[perhaps 1/4"] was put through the exhaust pipe and the muffler end simply butted against it. The split pin serves the same function as Larry's upset around the pipe.

I have no photographic evidence of this, but will take some if I see it again some time.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 06:56 am:

Martin, here is some fossil evidence from an original Canadian muffler.

The photo shows the two rivets which held the deflector on.

Here you can see the details of the method holding the back of the muffler together.

You can just make out the rounded notches on th flange of the front muffler end in this photo. These notches engaged on the split pin inserted through the pipe.

The pipe had rusted off at this point, leaving just enough for the front end of the muffler in place.

Hope this helps.
Allsn from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 10:08 am:

I just received a few 4032 muffler head retainers that are pictured above in Alans' photo. They are NOS, and are $4 each plus postage if anyone is interested. If you have a 1 1/2 carriage bolt, and some flat and lock washers and 5/16 nuts, you will have enough to hold your muffler together!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 11:50 am:

Martin - if you look at the photo of the rear of the muffler that Alan posted and compare the proportions of that with your drawing you could see what I was talking about. Look at the dimple in the rear piece that the exhaust pipe nestles into. Your dimple makes it look like the exhaust pipe is very small in diameter (1/2" - 3/4"). Since your dimple is small it is throwing off the proportions of the nut and washer. I do see that the nut and washer is the same size in your muffler drawing as your exhaust pipe drawing. So maybe what is also off is the diameter of the exhaust pipe itself. If that is scaled up then the dimple, nut & washer would also be.

I am now also wondering about the outer diameter of the washer. Alan's photo shows it pretty close to the same diameter of the exhaust pipe. I don't know if they were all like this.

Maybe me being an architect has got me too picky.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 01:49 pm:

I have sent Martin a whole bunch of stuff, so some time in the future there should be more on both the USA and Canadian mufflers.

Best regards,John Page, Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 06:07 pm:

Thomas, I discovered the problem last night when I got John Page's stuff on the Canadian muffler. It's not that my nut is too small, it's that my muffler is too large. I drew looking at the Ford Catalog pictures, which we all know are not really factual, but more along the lines of a fair representation what they may look like (I've ran into that a lot). The catalog pictures had the different shell steps equal proportionally to each other, but in actuality the outer one is 1/2 the proportions of the inner one, which allows the exhaust to disperse more evenly around the inside of the outer shell. I should've looked for a real muffler front and end plate before I drew the drawing...my bad :-(

The upshot of this is, you can expect a whole new drawing of both the American version and it looks like there'll be at least two (probably three) different Canadian drawings too (and I suspect for the American one as well).

Does anybody know if on the American muffler if Ford went to the stamped end plate without rivets with a stamped out deflector for the exit opening? I'm thinking that if Ford did that for the 26-27 Canadian cars he more than likely did also here in America too. I'm also thinking that at some point...say round 1925 there was some sort of transitional point where they were just starting to make the end plate out of one stamping getting away from the rivets all together...the way they did on the Canadian cars. But hadn't either figured or tooled up enough to make the production year in 25 with the stamped deflector for the exit, because on the Canadian muffler there is a transitional muffler where the mounting bracket is made part of the stamping of the plate, but the deflector is riveted on. I'm thinking that it's this way with the American muffler too. Because Ford always works the same way across the board everywhere (uneconomical not too from a bean counters standpoint). The only time this differs is say, something is made overseas in England with a whole different engineering staff and manufacturing plant...like those European front axles...they were different where they put the wishbone from what we did here. Just wondering if anybody has any information either way on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 06:43 pm:

Martin,
I will email you the change dates from that article I mentioned in our corresponding yesterday.

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

Larry Smith, I sent you a PM. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 08:03 pm:

Thomas,
I don't think you're being too picky. The cup washer isn't as big in diameter as the pipe, but I don't have mine handy to measure it. Larry has the dimensions though.
Would be interesting to see the Canadian version. I'd guess they figured drilling a hole and inserting a pin was cheaper than the electric upset? Probably not worried about the little bit of exhaust gas leakage.
I too, would like to see the changes of end plate design.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, December 21, 2015 - 11:09 am:

I have a late design muffler end around here somewhere, and it is indeed all one piece. The outlet on it was moved from 9 o'clock to half past the hour, and wasn't completely punched out either. 80% of it was punched, and bent out to diffuse the exhaust downward. Also, it wasn't stamped from two pieces of fender scrap either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, December 21, 2015 - 01:53 pm:

Larry,
I have sent Martin images of the same style as yours.

It is the one that you told me was on eBay in the US a year or so ago, and I finished up winning it.

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, December 21, 2015 - 07:25 pm:

Soooo, John, is that a US muffler end or Canadian? Because when you rotate the bracket to a mounting position the exit is not pointing straight down, it's more like down and pointing towards the RH side rear wheel (or 5:00).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, December 21, 2015 - 09:54 pm:

Martin, It is a USA muffler end. I won it on eBay USA a year so ago.
Larry gave me the Heads Up on it.
The Blue Print from the Benson Ford I sent you is the last of the USA muffler ends. Dated 12/3/26
If you look at the email I sent you ( Part 2 USA ) all that information is there.
I deliberately separated the Canadian from the USA information so there would be no confusion. I thought it might give you a chance to do the drawings and then get some feedback.
The article published in the Vintage Ford magazine September - October 2013 is a good reference for the different changes and timeline.
As far as I have been able to assertion all the Canadian pressed steel mufflers exited at the bottom at ( 6 O'clock ).

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, December 21, 2015 - 10:06 pm:

This is as I received the eBay Muffler End.
I have since cleanded it up.

Regards, John






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 - 01:16 am:

John,
I think the very center, around the hole, on yours has been dented in. Likely it was assembled without the cup washer, which helps prevent this, besides providing a little spring tension on the assembly (the reason for the cup shape).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 - 09:50 am:

The one pictured above is the same one I have. It would be interesting to know when Ford made that change.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 - 02:22 pm:

Larry,
All the changes are documented in the muffler article published in the Vintage Ford magazine September - October 2013.
Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 08:09 pm:

The big washer that goes against the rear muffler end is 1 1/4" dia, and is dished 1/32". I'm looking into getting some made, but I don't want 500! It is about 3/32 thick, with a 3/8 hole in the middle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 09:28 pm:

Is is muffler information in the September-October 2013 Vintage Ford magazine. I could not find it there. Perhaps I missed it. Can you tell me the page number?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 10:27 pm:

Arnie,

I apologise, my mistake I should have said September - October. 2011.

Pages 19, 20, 21.

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 10:29 pm:

John:

Thanks, I am old and forgetful! I thought my mind went south! Thanks for the update.

Arnie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 10:47 pm:

Here's a picture of the three-rivet bracket end.



While I'm posting, here is the earlier cast iron end with through bolt, first the front end


And the back end.


David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 11:23 pm:

Bump, in case folks haven't seen the last postings.
BTW, I believe Larry is working on making the '15 muffler pipe.
David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 04:58 am:

David, I think he is working on the '21-'27 muffler parts too! At least, I hope so!!! I just received his exhaust pipe and it is excellent! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 02:06 pm:

Yes, I believe you are right (working on the muffler parts). I am fortunate to have found good ends in my parts boxes AND under two of my cars! Shows the durability of the original parts that they are still around, and haven't been replaced after all these decades (and that two of my cars, at least, apparently weren't driven hard).
Now, all I need for my '16 is the pipe! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 02:37 pm:

I believe that the double thickness of the original ends is the reason they have lasted.

Best regards, John

From the encyclopaedia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 11:44 pm:

John,
I was thinking of the entire assembly (pipe & muffler pieces, as I have two cars with them intact, and my three-rivet bracket muffler is also still intact. The cast iron ends one, though, has lost most of the sheet metal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 01:55 am:

David, from the looks of those photos you posted, it looks like the muffler mounts from the front plate onto the rear of the pipe, right? Does that mean that the pipe is shorter by the length of the muffler, but has the same mounting as the later versions within the pipe? So, this is what the big long bolt is for then. The front plate as well as the rear plate would need a mounting flange to take the stress off the rear of the pipe, right? And this is the sort for the 1915's?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 08:20 pm:

Martin,
Yes, the long bolt is for the earlier, cast iron muffler ends, and like the previous versions (the three bolts around the outside), the exhaust pipe ends at the muffler; however, the bends in it are different! Thus, you can't really just cut the latter pipe shorter and use it. I think that's because the earlier muffler is mounted to the frame on the front and the rear, as you noted. The one I pictured is '17 to '19, the '15 - '16 had a tailpipe inserted into the rear casting and the brackets were part of the casting, earlier mufflers had separately attached brackets (and tail pipes too).
It is interesting to note that the muffler flow design stayed the same, the two inner pipes and outer cover, but everything else was changed to lower costs & speed production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, January 12, 2016 - 10:33 am:

I'm going to see about making the 13-20 pipes today. Don't hold your breath though. It will probably be at least two to three months before I have an answer. One thing for sure, they will be much easier than the late ones! I also have a 09-13 pipe which I'll tackle at a later date. One thing at a time.


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