Broken rear hub

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Broken rear hub
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:07 am:

I'd just been for a long trip and as I was turning into my driveway the car just lost power from the drivetrain and the foot brake didn't work.
I really had thought the universal joint had failed but when I examined it, it hadn't. Then I looked at the rear end and when I jacked up the left side back wheel it was strangely loose, but the axle had clearly not broken. Once I got the wheel off it was obvious what happened:
hub
The hub is now in two pieces. Interestingly, the break is rough. Anyway, it just so happened someone had given me an ancient wheel a while back and was able to get the hub off that, so should have it all back together tomorrow.
Does anyone know what might have caused this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:33 am:

Old age? Interesting John, I have never seen or heard of that happening before. Maybe loose spokes the would put a side load on the hub more than normal? No indications of any cracks/fractures? Keep us posted. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:39 am:

Old age!? Interesting John, I have never seen or heard of that happening before. Maybe loose spokes that would put a side load on the hub more than normal? No indication of any cracks/fractures? Spurious parts as Henry referred to them? Keep us posted. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:39 am:

Hi John.

Well, at least the car got you home! Good timing.

I have a rear hub just like that. It came to me in 2 pieces, just like your photo shows. I guess it could be a fatigue crack that finally let go, but I always assumed the Hyatt race had worked its way outwards and chewed into the hub until it separated. What does the outer end of the bearing race look like? Any evidence of a lathe-like effect on the inside face of the hub?

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:41 am:

I just got a weird error trying to post that - it seems David and I hit "post" simultaneously!

Andrew.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:43 am:

Andrew, never had that happen before! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 05:07 am:

We had the same problem on a long interstate tour with one of the cars. It was descending from a lookout at the time, and the driver rode it to the bottom. No harm done other than a change of underwear! In this case, he was saved from a disaster by a reproduction hubcap. It being slightly thicker material, it stopped the outside plate on the hub, with spokes and broken inner flange, from migrating off the hub.

I had seen a welded up hub before, but had no experience of the breakage. It means you have no transmission brake, just like you have a broken axle. Scary stuff in the wrong place.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 05:19 am:

David, the loose spoke theory could be plausible. The spokes are still very tight between each other, but there is a small gap between the spokes and the hub, which I think should not be there. When I respoked the wheel on the other side the spokes are tightly against the hub which would obviously be stronger. Still, I would have thought the hub flange should be able to take the weight on its own - maybe not?

Andrew, the I've had broken brake springs wear into the drum before, so I also thought about the lathe effect from something loose inside before I got the wheel off, however, I've got the modern outer bearing seals and the Hyatt bearing is still safely behind that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dan doughty on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 08:15 am:

I had that happen to me a few years ago.

My dad worked in a Ford garage in 1920 - 1923 and he spoke of it happening.

On page 144 of Murray Fahnestock's book he has a temp. fix for it. You take off the hub cap and place the wheel wrench on the nut then tie the ends of the wrench to the spokes!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 08:28 am:

Are you the "Charter Member" of the 2 piece hub club? Metal Fatigue seems probable from the picture, our cars are getting older so maybe we need to start looking at these things more frequently JMHO Thankfully it happened as you were arriving home. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 08:51 am:

I have seen a few of these. Most on worn axle shafts which leads to worn hubs. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 08:57 am:

Must be aftermarket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 09:39 am:

Is it just me, or does it look like there is a brass sleeve with keyway pressed into the hub?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 09:52 am:

Larry: I have seen it on Ford hubs. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James M. Riedy, Sandusky, Ohio on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 09:56 am:

To have a lathe effect on the inside of the hub would it not have to go through the brake drum first? Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:17 am:

Similar 'bad hub' experience on tour in NC years ago. This coupe owner complained of 'catching' rear end, like a busted ring gear, was snapping on occasion. Since we were on mountain roads had to find a cause and fix.

So the rear axle came out to find that known worn Thrust, or maybe bad ring or pinion.



Many helpers later, inspected the innards, all was well......what could it be?



Well, put that rear end back together, and back under the T.

When fitting the driver's rear wheel, inspected the wheel close, and sure enough, some worn paint at the flange bolt holes, grabbed the rear drum, and it moved!! Removed the drum, and to all around were amazed to see that hub had cracked around the inside flange, rather jagged. The hub could turn a bit at a time due to the jagged break, it had mimicked a 'loose rear axle'......

Glad to find that... and that was 1st time I had seen a bad hub too.



Rear wheel piled on the left, didn't get a photo of the busted hub, but that is what caused this issue too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:31 am:

I see danger lurking in that last picture. Anybody else notice it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Fischer - Arroyo Grande, CA on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:40 am:

Yeah, cinder blocks. (shudder !)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Frost on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:40 am:

Bricks need to be placed the other way. No strength like that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:56 am:

Bricks need to not be used at all. No matter how they fail, they fail instantly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 11:05 am:

I think it is from cornering at a fast speed (fast for a T). When you turn a corner, the weight is shifted to the wheels on the outside of the turn especially on the back wheel. Probably a small defect in the steel or a small crack started many years ago and then over the years it grew until it broke. Another good reason for having rear wheel brakes.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 02:37 pm:

I've seen that happen to wire wheel hub as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 04:57 pm:

It seems to happen more often with steel wire and/or disc wheels. Wood spokes cushion the hub somewhat.
I saw one like this over 40 years ago. It was at the Calistoga Classics Dirt Track Racing Reenactments on a half mile dirt track. One weekend per year, for four years, we ran racing speeds with model T speedsters and racers. If I recall correctly, in those four years, only two wood wheels were broken. Ironically, different years, but on the same car.
It was a nice car, and a fine fellow, still involved with speedsters today. He was doing a timed run around the track, and suddenly steered into the infield on the back side of the track near the pit area after one of the turns. We ran over from the pit area to see what was the matter, just as he and his mechanic are climbing out of the car, he is hollering "I don't know what happened! I was just rounding the turn and all of a sudden I had no power and no brakes!" About six of us had run over, and he and his mechanic all looking around the car (still in gear and sitting), we look down at the rear wheel and the hubcap is neatly spinning in the center of the wheel!
Someone at the track had brought a spare hub, so they had the car back on the track within an hour.
I have often wondered how the wheel stayed on, but figured some small amount of over-lapping piece of hub or drum kept it from sliding off. Either that, or just the direction of thrust was pushing it on for the 100 yards or so that it took for him to stop.
Those four weekends were the most fun I ever had in my life! Thank you Ed, Karen, Dan, Pat, Pat, Larry, and about fifty other people that all made those weekends incredible!
Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 07:12 pm:

I've had that happen to a non-T front hub at 40 mph really makes one sit up and pay attention!

It turned out this hub had cracked and been welded a long time ago, probably pre-WW2. A local club member carved me a couple new ones out of 4140 steel.








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 07:21 pm:

Steve, that cinder block thing is just plain scarey! Especially the way they're laying in that direction, and certainly also being of "modern" chintzy type that they mfg. today. There's nothin' to them anymore, compared to a couple of super hefty ones that I have. They way 3 times as much as todays concrete block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:41 pm:

Chris B, OUCH! That the Kissel?

I will add also that those cement blocks under that coupe that way is VERY SCARY! For even a minute, that would be too much risk.
Drive and work carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 01:14 pm:

Wayne, yes that's the '12 Kissel. I had planned to drive it to our local club meeting that evening -- instead I brought only the errant front wheel for show and tell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 12:20 am:

I think I started this warning thing on the forum about cinder blocks several years ago, with my relating how a friend of mine in Montana had been working alone under a vehicle he was working on that was propped up with cinder blocks that suddenly crumbled and resulted in his being crushed to death. For awhile, I guess I was kind of a "pain" with my "safety lecture" every time I saw a photo of cinder blocks being used instead of proper jack stands. Obviously, my tiresome "rant" is no longer necessary as this thread so adequately demonstrates. Thanks for the support guys,...... I like to think maybe we've prevented someone from getting hurt or worse,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 12:25 am:

I think I started this warning thing on the forum about cinder blocks several years ago, with my relating how a friend of mine in Montana had been working alone under a vehicle he was working on that was propped up with cinder blocks that suddenly crumbled and resulted in his being crushed to death. For awhile, I guess I was kind of a "pain" with my "safety lecture" every time I saw a photo of cinder blocks being used instead of proper jack stands. Obviously, my tiresome "rant" is no longer necessary as this thread so adequately demonstrates. Thanks for the support guys,...... I like to think maybe we've prevented someone from getting hurt or worse,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 03:14 am:

If anyone doubts what Harold is saying, just tap on the side of a concrete block(the way they are supporting that coupe, that scares the crap out of me!) with a hammer and see how easily it will break. Even if they are turned over to the correct way to hold weight, they can fail very easily if the weight isn't spread out over the whole block, such as using a board to spread out the load. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 03:54 am:

I, for one, will thank you for your "tiresome rant" about these type of blocks. While I have never lost a close friend to them, I have heard of several people killed by them.
My own up close and personal experience with cinder blocks is that for many years, we did a lot of systems service work in mobile home parks. I have been under hundreds of mobile homes doing system repairs. About half of the mobile homes were set up on cinder blocks. There are a few right ways, and lots of wrong ways to set them up. And under a mobile home, the weight is supposed to be distributed enough for them to be safe. Yet I have seen many many hundreds of broken cinder blocks underneath coaches.
One, two, even six cinder blocks holding half the weight of a thousand pound car IS NOT SAFE!!!!
After the Loma Prieta Earthquake in '89, I got to inform dozens of mobile home owners that they needed proper repair immediately. One coach I had to look under had lost more than 3/4 of their supports. The only thing that kept the home from being severely damaged was the aluminum siding that had been attached all the way around below the house.
The picture of the coupe up above? Is one of the scariest things I have ever seen! I had to calm myself and tell me that "they are only talking about a broken hub repair on a tour. They're all done, it didn't collapse, nobody was hurt." It had already been pointed out by Steve J and Dick F when I saw it and I just wasn't ready to comment on it for awhile.
I honestly do not know, if there would be any worse way to block up a car and work on it than that coupe was done. Like Dave F pointed out, the blocks were even turned the (second to) worst way.
Please set up and work safely! I do not want to lose friends to that kind of thing.
Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Archer Hayward, CA. on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 05:19 pm:

Experience speaking. Here's why they break. The butt of the spokes aren't tight against the hub stem. The hub is cast iron so not bendable. You're going around a corner and the spokes and backing plate are saying "I'm not bending, I'm staying straight" The hub stem is saying "I'm not bending either" but with the spokes not solidly touching it there's a little chance for bend or flex and cast iron doesn't bend, it breaks.

Ed aka #4


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration