Replacing the forth main

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Replacing the forth main
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 03:17 pm:

I just took home a 1915 that is very original but in need of the rear seal to be replaced. I have the new bearing and seal to install as I thought it would be a good idea since I will be taking the hogs head off and moving the drive shaft to replace the seal. I've done this before but some of you are a lot more experienced than I and could offer some steps in the process. When you read the green/black book it starts off with putting the hangers on the frame to lift so you can remove the springs from the rear end. I don't have the hangers and wonder what some of you use to lift and work safely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 06:55 pm:

I lift the car by jacking up the rear axle. When the wheels are off the ground, I remove the wheels and place jack stands on crates to hold the frame up on both sides just ahead of where the rear radius rods cross under. Then I can lower rear end so the shackles line up horizontally. Since the wheels are off I can unscrew the nuts holding the spring perches almost off and allow the perches to move inward, taking pressure off the shackles allowing them to be removed easily. Finally I lower the rear end down to rest on a furniture dolly. Once the brake rods are removed, I can unbolt the fourth main and slide the rear end back out under the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 07:52 pm:

4th main, rear seal??
Without measuring the output shaft how do you know what size rebabbitted 4th you need? They come in different ID to compensate for wear.
What seal, there is none in the 4th main.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 08:25 pm:

Thanks Mr. Gould--That is the way I have done it in the past. I think I have two other concerns but they may not be. This car has a type if rocky mountain brakes that operate only on the emergency brake. I think I can disconnect the rods and pull the wheels without dismantling the brakes at the wheel. The car also has an additional transmission that is attached to the rear end spool. I also think I can disconnect the rod to the transmission which is located on a bracket at the universal joint housing. Wish me luck. PS-- I don't know what I said that is so wrong as pointed out by Mr. Greqush.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 10:30 pm:

Simple Mr Cruickshank, the babbitt 4th mains come in different ID and except for the freeze plug in the tail shaft there is no seal in that area. Until you have the rear end out and measure the tail shaft how do you know what size 4th you need.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Friday, January 01, 2016 - 10:36 pm:

I suggest while you have rear end out of car,you check the thrust washers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Saturday, January 02, 2016 - 04:34 am:

Mr. Mark Greqush--If you look on page T-38 of Snyder's parts catalog, item #T-3369=B eliminates the issues with the babbitt bearing and adds a seal. It is called "BALL BEARING BALL CAP". That is what I am replacing. It is "SIMPLE" to use your terms.
Mr. Jack Daron--The car was restored about 10 years ago and the brass thrust washers were installed. Thanks for your advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, January 02, 2016 - 11:53 am:

After i broke the crankshaft in our 14 i found a failed 4'th main ball bearing! Did the failed ball bearing bust my crankshaft,i do not know but at total rebuild it got babbit!! Your millage might vary but Steve Jelf has a well built system for rear axel removal!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 02, 2016 - 12:09 pm:

You never said it was a ball bearing 4th in any postings up to the last one. You could have pointed that out in your first reply.
I hope it has not been glued with Lock-tite to the tail shaft and does just slide off and it is the one that fits right on the tail shaft (the one you have) not the one that requires the shaft to be turned down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, January 02, 2016 - 05:56 pm:

I'm sure what happened to my bearing was it was sealed only on the back side.Not even a shield facing the engine oil So---- Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Saturday, January 02, 2016 - 08:03 pm:

Why do people use this *non-standard* stuff because it is just another source of problems and does not solve or improve anything...particularly the 4th main. ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 08:16 am:

I helped a guy install that 4th Main Ball Bearing once.

The difficult part was cutting that 3/8th inch crescent moon shaped piece of the bottom of the ball.

A few months later, I helped him remove that new style bearing and install a proper 4th Main Bearing.

There was an issue with the ball bearing being only dust proof and not oil proof. It was dust proof and advertised as oil proof, but it badly leaked oil.

The Model T catalog stated oil proof and the bearing manufacturer only stated it was dust proof.

A full refund was promptly provided though.

That was about 10 years ago and that problem may be corrected now.

The next problem was getting a 4th Main the correct size or getting one close and finding a machine shop to resize it. Most are sold as standard .005 or .010 under to compensate for wear.

An accurate measurement of the transmission shaft is a must to improve the oil leak situation and not burn up a new bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 09:09 am:

I put one in my ole blue truck,maybe 10 years ago,and it is doing fine. Guess I'm just lucky.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 09:39 am:

Yes but Jack you probably checked the run out at the crank and then at the tail shaft and found it within tolerance before installing the new style 4th main. Not that everyone else that has had problems with the ball bearing type didn't, it's just one of those important things that depending on your definition of rebuild may be overlook, ball bearing or Babbitt. I know I did before I became more involved. For me it was a case of "stupid is as stupid does." Not anymore most of the time thanks to Herm, Mike, Royce, Erik & other forum members that post with their advice and expertise. That's the beauty of the forum. All of you have helped "EDJAMACATE" me enough to make better decisions but my decision none the less.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 10:49 am:

To John,I do not know why except the mindset the Model T must be improved? The fellow i bought my 14 from was a retired GM engineer and he should have known which bearing to use but maybe he was sold a story?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 12:11 pm:

Bud agreed, but if you will allow we all have choices. So what I may like you may not. It doesn't mean I disagree with whom ever, it's just that since I bought the car I might want to do what I want to do with it. Believe me I've change some things that on the surfaced seemed like a good idea then later changed back. An example would be the Watts Clutch, FOR ME, seemed like a dandy idea. As you know not a small undertaking. Some Members rave about it, but for me it wasn't a good idea because of me resting my big fat size 13 foot on the pedal on occasion looking for more room...hmm maybe more than an occasion. Well it didn't take long for me to wear it out. So back to the original disk. You will have to agree though that the premiss of why try to improve on the T model can be taken too far. Not all but many would say Safety glass & aluminum Pistons are positive improvement, Perhaps new transmission drums with better strength in their design, kevlar bands, new capacitors in coils the list could go on but you get the jest. Depending on where you live sometimes you have to give up on originality a little to be able to safely operate your Model T not everyone has the luxury to live in a more rural state where you could if you wanted to find road less traveled.
I'm not arguing or challenging but giving just my opinion. Peace!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 12:39 pm:

John,My post was to john McGinnis and everyone do whatever you want,it's your model T! My only reason to post on this thread is to tell what i found when i busted a crankshft!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 02:10 pm:

I have always checked run out on tail shafts.Usually they are 3-5 thou out,but I found one that was 30 thousands out! That is a lot of wobble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 02:51 pm:

Ball bearing ball caps in many cases should not be used unless you are as smart as the ball cap.

Les has said some of his cranks are as much as .010 off side ways on the rear main, in which case a ball cap should not be used, as even with a straight pan, ball cap alignment will not be right.

We have always used shield bearings, as a sealed bearing adds 80.00 dollars to the cost of the bearing, and we have never had a need for anything but a shield bearing.

Gluing a bearing sleeve to a tail shaft is one stupid idea. The tail shaft has to move through the bearing in expansion, forward, and back. If the shaft in the bearing can't move, then something else will, and you won't like it.

Bearing to tail shaft fit should be plus .000-50 thousandths, no more, no less, and you have to have the tools to measure that, and many don't.

I have never liked cutting a drive shaft tube ball, that is why we cut the tail shaft, as they are normally tapered anyway.

Broken crankshafts are not caused from either Babbitt, or ball bearing ball caps. If the crank was not cracked when you put it in, or you did the "ballpeen test to see if it rings and left it at that, you just as well hit yourself between the eyes, as it would have done more good" you have a pan alignment problem, or a center line out of line wobble problem.

Babbitt ball caps should be cut for a .002-50 clearance, and never over .003 as they will leak more then necessary, and under .002-50 will many times smear.

We do not sell our ball caps generally any more, only to engine builders, and with the babbitting, we can't keep up with that.

Herm.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 03:41 pm:

One more time,I did not build the engine,i bought the car and after running like a watch for about 10 years it broke the crankshaft.When tearing down i found the bad ball bearing with no seal or shield facing the engine oil!! I do not know what the run out was as again i did not build the engine!! I would think had a sealed bearing been used i might still be running that crankshaft! So someone saved a little by using a cheaper bearing but i'm the guy that paid the price!!!!!!!!!!!!! The man who had the engine rebuilt was the same fellow who built the vibration analysis program for GM so i doubt he was not smarter than a ball cap but he may have been sold a bill of goods!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 07:25 pm:

I feel like I want to jump in here but, I don't know who to tell they're wrong or stupid or dumb or...

On second thought, I think I'll just kick my dog!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 12:37 am:

Those are general statements boys, don't let it get to hard to get happy around here.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 02:16 pm:

Then too, I cannot help but suspect that the other main bearings are equally as worn as the 4th Main and this is an ought for not plan anyway.

Perhaps the 4th Main could have been damaged more by towing the T home one day when it misbehaved on the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 10:36 am:

I tore down a 1914 engine the other day and found an interesting 4th main cap:




It has an oillite insert. The insert was silver soldered to the cap. The position of the output shaft in the pan was measured, and the bronze was then offset bored to match the offset of the pan. The hole was located to the side, the offset is "up". An interesting and practical solution if you don't have access to a Babbitt cap that has not been bored.

I may use this in my 1914 engine, it is in great shape.

I don't see the point in the ball bearing main caps - too expensive.


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