Transmission inspection

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Transmission inspection
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:31 am:

I am in the process of building up a new engine for the '14. Toward that goal I tore apart a 1919 engine that had been in my parts stash for about 15 years.

The engine had been a decent runner but was in a 1925 Fordor sedan. That car got restored with a 1925 engine. So the 1919 engine sat on a wooden dolly and got moved from Texas to Kentucky to Virginia and back to Texas again.



Removing the hogshead and the engine pan was uneventful. The pedal shafts were all tight in their holes, suggesting a low mileage engine. The engine had a bunch of muck in it from non detergent oil, but was not the worst I have seen. The bands looked almost new. The transmission drums are the best I have ever found in an engine.



The clutch spring was weak. You could tell it was weak because someone had adjusted the screws in to the point that the gap measured 1" instead of the correct 13/16".

Started by backing off the adjuster screws and compressing the spring:



Then I pushed the pin out with a punch:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:34 am:

Cool spring compressor, is that home-made? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:45 am:

With the clutch spring off the driving plate can be unbolted. The clutch plates were removed, cleaned and inspected. All are flat, there are no score marks, just a little hint of blue color. Almost no wear. These plates will be re - used.

I removed the set screw from the clutch hub and pulled it:



The brake drum has almost no wear, and no cracks. There is no wear on the lugs that the clutch plates drive, just some shiny spots where the plates make contact.




I removed the clutch hub drive key. Then the transmission shaft gets pressed out:


The planet gears show no signs of wear. All the rivets are tight. The planet shafts are tight in the flywheel, mirror finish, with no sign of wear. There is no perceptible play in any of the bushings / shafts. I will measure them tonight. My guess is they are fit to .002 - .003".



Next I took the magnets off the flywheel. They only lift about a pound and will have to be recharged. That and replacing the clutch spring are the only things needed other than reassembly.

Apparently my disassembly of the transmission was a complete waste of time!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:47 am:

Mark,

Yes, it is made so that it can be used with the engine in the car. My dad made it probably 50 years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:55 am:

Left out the photo of the shaft being pushed out of the bushing:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:56 am:

"Apparently my disassembly of the transmission was a complete waste of time!"

Except that someone who has never attempted gets to see a good overall tutorial with pictures. Thanks for taking the time to post this.

It appears that the field coil was reinsulated at some point in the past. Was this a good runner on magneto when it was in the car?

What is the transmission band material?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 09:57 am:

Glad to see that someone got a pleasant surprise on a teardown, instead of the usual unpleasant surprises! While things are apart, I suppose you could check everything for balance and fine-tune as desired. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 10:17 am:

Royce,

If you don't mind looking, is the radius rod support bracket on the pan the two rivet or the four rivet style? I have a Jan 1919 engine which has the two rivet bracket. Just wondering how long Ford used that earlier bracket.

An Aug 9, 1921 factory note stated "New style crankcase in all production.". Is this about the radius rod bracket, or something else?

Your '19 transmission looks great. I hope you don't mind my going slightly off topic with your post.

Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 10:53 am:

Dan,

The field coil has Glyptal on it, obviously not original. Also half the magnet spacers are bronze, the other half aluminum suggesting someone has replaced the magnets at some time.

Yes, it ran fine on MAG even with the weak magnets. The bands look like either Ford or Montgomery Wards. They are the detachable ear type. I am tempted to use them on Low and Reverse.

Rich I will have to look at the pan I don't remember. Would the new style pan be the four dip style?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 11:49 am:

Nice find Royce. Wouldn't the "top hat" bushing in the brake drum along with the riveted triple gears make the transmission earlier than a '19 ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 11:52 am:

I think the spacer washer came in 1920 Steve. This one had no distance plate in the clutch pack, again correct for 1919.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 12:51 pm:

Your photos show why merely re-coating a used original field coil seldom pays. The brittle wrappings will continue to flake off and threaten to clog the oil line as well as allow ever more metallic dust to lodge between the turns of the windings and cause shorts that will reduce the output.

Thanks for posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 01:24 pm:

Royce, I did the same last weekend with different results.

My tranny was set up about ten years or so ago, so I have better than 10,000 miles on it. Since I couldn't find my spring compressor I had to make a new one:

+++ jpeg +++ 601085 +++ Compressor 1
+++Compressor 2Compressor 3


It is not as slick as yours but in a pinch with a splitter and old sheet steel stock on hand, it worked. I think I just may make up one like yours... it would be harder to lose than mine is.

Following this things went south. Drums look good, but the teeth on Low were worn a bunch,
the drum bushings are worn and need replacement, the triple gear bushings are shot, and the output rivets are a little loose.




At least my magnets are nice like yours. I have to go now and look through my tranny parts pile to pick the drums I will use this time.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 01:39 pm:

The Bible and the Ford parts book both specify three driven gear sleeve washers (3320-D). In the transmission from my 1915 roadster I found two. Is there a legitimate reason to leave one out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 08:42 pm:

The planet gear pins measure.679. The I. D. Of the bushings is .684. So the clearance is .005".

The wishbone bracket on the pan has only one rivet on each side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 10:19 pm:

Steve,

Your brake drum would or should have had a flanged bushing as Royce pictured above, which takes a different clutch drum requiring only two thrust washers and I believe a "distance" plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, January 04, 2016 - 10:20 pm:

Royce - did your clutch drum have 6 or 2 holes ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 10:48 am:

Steve,

It has six holes in the front. It has two holes for the puller. It is dirty from the crappy ND oil but shows no wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 12:19 pm:

Nice clutch drum ! Requesting the number of holes, I should have specified in the sides where you would attach the puller.

My understanding of "early" transmissions is the difference in the use of the brake drum with the flanged bushing, clutch drum with 6 holes in the side being used with the clutch disk distance plate & 2 steel thrust washers for all the components to be "happy" in relation to each other.

Due to the "flanged" bushing being unavailable, Lang's stocks a "special" steel thrust washer to merely install with 2 of the stock thickness ones with the brake drum bushing currently available to maintain the proper distance between the brake drum & clutch drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 12:55 pm:

All you have to do is lathe about .015 thousandths off the washer side of the disk drum and use the 3 standard washers to get your .015 thousandths of end play.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 02:54 pm:

That should work too - how you doing, Herm ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

All Model T transmission built after car number 2500 but before May 15, 1920 used the top hat bushing in the brake drum. The use of a new brake drum, three steel washers, and a new transmission began on May 15,1920.

The transmission brake drums are not completely interchangeable. Nor are the transmission disc drums. The distance from the locking screw hole to the machined face of the transmission disc drum is slightly longer on the type used with the top hat bushing brake drums, and a little bit shorter between the locking screw hole and the machined surface on the transmission disc drums used with the three steel washers.

The way you can distinguish between the two transmission disc drums is by looking for the name Ford in script. If there is no Ford script, or the Ford script is located on the same side of the drum as the machined surface, then that drum was designed to be used with top hat bushing brake drums. If the name Ford in script is located on the top side of the transmission disc drum, then that transmission disc drum was designed to be used with a brake drum using the three steel washers.

Again, the brake drums and the disc drums are not interchangeable. If you use a later disc drum with a top hat bushing brake drum, you will have too much clearance between the top of the bushing and the disc drum. If you try to use a later brake drum and three steel washers together with an earlier disc brake drum, then you will not have enough clearance between the brake drum, the three washers and the disc drum, and a burned up transmission.

I believe that Mr. Kohnke is correct when he says trimming about .015 inch from the machined surface of the disc drum will provide sufficient clearance. Alternatively, the Model T parts suppliers sell a special thin steel washer which combined with two regular steel washers will provide the correct clearance when the top hat bushing is replaced with a regular straight bushing.

The only reference I have ever found regarding the lack of interchangeability between brake drums and disc drums in any of the Ford service literature is in the May 15, 1920 Ford Service Bulletin.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, January 05, 2016 - 06:08 pm:

Much appreciate the additional information, Trent !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 07:45 pm:

Today I finished the disassembly of the flywheel / magneto section.

The brass screws were not peened over by the last guy in her, so I did not have to grind the tails, and the screws will be reusable. The technique here is to use a screwdriver with a tip that fits the screws properly. The screwdriver is inserted, then hit the handle of the screwdriver several times with a BFH. You need to put a lot of weight on the screwdriver, and use a wrench to turn the screws loose the first half turn or so.



The bolts get loosened with a breaker bar then spun out with a speed wrench.



The spools are set aside for inspection with a magnifying glass. Magnets are kept in order on a round board for now. They will need to be inspected for cracks and recharged.

The starter ring gear is in perfect shape and will not be replaced.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 07:59 pm:

What clearance do I need between the end of the transmission shaft and the bushing inside the pressure plate/ output shaft unit?

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 08:12 pm:

The main shaft was .998" and my Ford reamers are 1.00" so .002" clearance, if that what you asking Terry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 08:43 pm:

Royce - Two really unimportant "side observations" in your very nice photos:

I'm not sure that a "BFH" is quite the right choice, as perhaps a "medium" size hammer might be less apt to bust that plastic screwdriver all to bits. I like square shank screwdrivers for just the reason you suggest Royce; nice to be able to apply a bit of extra "torque" to the screwdriver with a Crescent wrench, right? However, I've found that it's easy to find square shank screwdrivers (think Sears Craftsman brand) but it's hard to find them with the steel shank running all the way through the plastic (or wood) handle so that a whack with a "BFH" just contacts the steel shank,....NOT just the plastic or wood handle.

Also, that looks like another neat "fixture" your Dad made for easier handling of heavy and awkward flywheel assemblies. Used a couple Model T front motor mount caps, huh? Neat tool,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 08:52 pm:

Or, maybe they're connecting rod caps, but pretty neat,....whatever!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Saturday, January 09, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

Re: Square shank screwdrivers, I prefer the Snap On brand. Mine have a 6 sided shank up at the underside of the handle,like a nut giving more wrench combinations in tighter areas.

Snap On screw drivers have a much easier grip to handle both the solid type and the newer easy grip agronomic style. These handles seem to give a much better grip when trying to get stubborn screws loose, especially when using a wrench at the same time.

To note I have never broken a solid Snap On screwdriver handle or blade no matter how I abused it.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 04:45 am:

If you sharpen a screwdriver with a concave tip on both sides, such as is noted in the book "Shop Theory" that Henry printed, it is very hard to to strip a slotted screw head. If done correctly, you can twist off a screw head before the screw driver will slip. The tip of the screwdriver will contact the bottom of the screw slot, instead of the top. I have been sharpening my screwdrivers that way ever since my uncle gave me a copy of that book in the early '60's. I have often wondered why none of the tool makers make them that way. The hex sided screw driver bits that are popular for battery powered drills and such are very close to that design. The sides are pretty much parallel, which is way better than the tapered sides of a normal screwdriver. The tapered style screwdrivers, which we have lived with forever, just try to climb out of the slot when twisted. Try sharpening one of your screwdrivers with a concave tip and see how it works. It may take a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, it isn't hard to do. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 11:09 am:

Great info Trent! Just so happens I am choosing parts for rebuilding a transmission and was wondering about the different disc drums.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 01:00 pm:

This morning I built a charger on the advice of Ted Dumas. It works very well, the charged magnets can pick up a 4 1/2 pound adjustable wrench easily.

First I put some 2" tygon tubing over each side of a magnet. Then I wound 13 turns of 12 gage stranded wire around each side, winding clockwise on one and counter clockwise on the other side.



With a little duct tape and some brass screws for connecting the jumper cables I had the tool made in about 15 minutes.



The magnets have a clamp side and a flywheel side. If you look closely at them they are machined on the clamp side. Half the magnets are charged with the clamp side up and placed every other position on the round board. The other eight magnets are flipped over and charged the opposite way. That way the magnets are arranged negative to negative and positive to positive when all are right side up. The + side of each magnet is painted so they cannot be accidentally assembled wrong.



Each magnet is flashed three or four times by carefully striking the top of the screw for an instant each time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allen Brintnall on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:16 pm:

Royce, thanks for your posts and help in many ways. Allen Brintnall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allen Brintnall on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 07:14 pm:

Thanks for sharing this information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 07:35 pm:

Royce,
You were able to get that much magnetic saturation with just a 12V battery?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 08:25 am:

David,

Yes. Bear in mind that Ford's in - car recharge is charging all of the magnets using six six volt batteries. I am only charging one magnet at a time, with a much more effective coil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 08:59 am:

Personal opinion (I'm not an electrical engineer) - I think the key to Royce's success is that the wire coils wrap around the legs of the magnet to be charged instead of just touching the ends of the legs.

Can John Regan or other experts offer their opinions? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kurt Baltrusch on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 09:22 am:

There has been quite a bit of information about transmission shafts not running true, that is, not only can you have run-out on the transmission shaft flange as well as on the crankshaft flange, the shafts were not centered with the holes in the flange. I just had one checked and it was .020" out, and the machinist looked at 3 others I had and they were all about the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 09:29 am:

I have 3 T's and used the same method that Royce used. It simple and works.

I did use no.8 stranded wire for my charger though.

It was the wire I had in the shop so I used it and it worked just fine.

If you do a forum search this method is used pretty often.
Some people will build a 'complex' device and use that but for me this method works fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 12:06 pm:

I use the same method as Royce except that I put a "keeper" across the face of the magnets when "flashing" them.
Recharging magnets


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 12:54 pm:

When the engine is apart, I use a good coil ring to recharge the magnets. Just find the North on the magnets and center the coil ring on the flywheel that you have the South coils of the coil ring on the North of the magnets. Flash the coil ring three times with 36Vdc and the magnets are charged.
Last week I had only 18Vdc (one 12V and one 6V battery), after charging the magnets I could lift up the complete Flywheel with the coil ring.
I had to use a screwdriver to separate them.
Out put of the magneto after reassembling was over 33Vac ( then the 21W 12V light blow out).

Good luck

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 03:55 am:

Rich, around this time there was an alteration made to the pan pressings. There was a pair of strengthening ribs pressed outwards either side of the radius rod ball socket. Prior to this, the front face was plain. I do not know exactly when this change was made. It is something which is often overlooked.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

Royce,

I remember listening to that engine when your dad first got the 25 sedan. It really purred. Tommy Griffin in the Dallas club has the car now.

Ted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 09:20 am:

Royce, I really like the stop lamp that appears in the first picture posted. That's a nice, convenient and attractive way to add stop lights to a car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 09:35 am:

Eric,

Those lamps were popular in the 1920's, and were made by lots of different companies in many styles. You can sometimes find a good deal on eBay.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 11:41 am:

Does the lettering have a light in it, or is it just reflective?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 11:54 am:

It is connected to an accessory brake light switch Richard. You can see the wire to the bulb in this photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 12:08 pm:

Cool.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Wednesday, December 21, 2016 - 11:51 pm:

Andre : How do you determine the polarity of the coils on the coil ring so you can locate them on the magnets properly (N to S and S to N). Thanks : Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 12:48 am:

With a compass . Make an electric circuit with your ring a 21W 12V light bulb and a 12V battery and go with your compass by every coil. You should find North alternating with South.


Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 10:11 am:

Thanks Andre : That's exactly what I wanted to know. I'm assuming that the "+" goes to the mag post terminal and the "-" goes to ground. Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 10:18 am:

Ever try an old brace with a screw driver bit in it after one smack of an impact screw driver for the first loosening of a screw for removal? It works with peened screws.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 10:55 am:

yes bruce, + on the post and - to the frame.

andre
belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 02:25 pm:

Very useful thread! Thank you, Royce!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Butler Huntington Beach, CA on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 02:17 pm:

I use an old brace like Paul does. Then, you're able to lean down on it for the "lot of weight" that Royce describes the need for. Additionally, the swing of the brace gives you your leverage for turning the screwdriver bit.


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