OT does 0 equal something?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: OT does 0 equal something?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 04:24 pm:

I just looked at the thermometer and it read 0. It seems odd to me that zero which in most cases represents a total lack of something still seems to represent a value of something called "cold". I went outside in my t-shirt and stood on the deck and it sure seemed to me like cold is a value of something. And this morning when I went out there and it was -15 it really felt even more like this measured lack of something with a value equal to 15 less than nothing at all could still be given a description of "cold"!

Also, does it seem like Christmas was a long time ago? Now, excuse me, I seem to have lost my beach ball.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 05:22 pm:

Michael,

To quote Mr. Thrifty:

"Maybe I'm over-thinking this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 05:39 pm:

On the scale 0 is a manmade measurement. On the Celsus scale 0 represents the temperature water freezes at sea level. 100 equals the boiling point of water at sea level. Farenheit doesn't make any scientific sense, but was an old measurement based on the average low temperature of 0 and highest average of 100. Probably in England or maybe in the Meditertanian. Some places it gets much colder then 0 on either scale and never gets as high as 100 Celsus. Anyway, in the case of thermometer 0 is just a point on a scale.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 05:42 pm:

Ya think. Sometimes in January, a lot of these questions start to come to mind. Usually by the end of February I stop asking others and I start to answer them myself. By the end of March I'll have it all figured out and there won't be a need for questions. It's strange how much you can teach yourself without hardly trying. Has anyone seen the sun?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 06:02 pm:

So if C=((F-32)(5/9)) then "0" or "nothing" equals 32. So 32 is nothing and nothing is the absence of anything, and 32 feels like 0. But earlier it didn't feel so warm. Actually it felt pretty darn cold.

So now when I look at the thermometer it reads -4 and that's cold I can relate to. I think it's because unlike 0, -4 has some value.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 06:45 pm:

The "Nothing" temperature (absolute zero) is -459.67 deg F, so it's got to cool off a lot more for that. Zero deg F is cold, I agree. Respectfully, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 06:55 pm:

I am with James on this one - sore is -459.67 deg F so Michael's 0 is is false. If Michael wants to be be exact his 0 is 459.67 degrees and that is plenty hot compared to,the real zero.
It is all relative --


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 07:01 pm:

It is interesting how something as cold as -459F which I think is called "absolute zero" (wonder who's the expert on that determination!) can at the same time, burn the crap out of you! Michael, no Christmas wasn't that long ago, and yet at Church last evening the Priest already started talking about Ash Wednesday service sign-up! Good grief does time ever fly or what? I'm sure swimsuits are already on the store racks too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 07:02 pm:

Yes but, -459.67 deg F is still warmer then a witch's Ti..... on the dark side on the moon.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 07:03 pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 07:19 pm:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the minimum temperature possible. For other uses, see Absolute Zero (disambiguation).

Absolute zero is the lower limit of the thermodynamic temperature scale, a state at which the enthalpy and entropy of a cooled ideal gas reaches its minimum value, taken as 0. The theoretical temperature is determined by extrapolating the ideal gas law; by international agreement, absolute zero is taken as -273.15° on the Celsius scale (International System of Units), which equates to -459.67° on the Fahrenheit scale (United States customary units or Imperial units). The corresponding Kelvin and Rankine temperature scales set their zero points at absolute zero by definition.

It is commonly thought of as the lowest temperature possible, but it is not the lowest enthalpy state possible, because all real substances begin to depart from the ideal gas when cooled as they approach the change of state to liquid, and then to solid; and the sum of the enthalpy of vaporization (gas to liquid) and enthalpy of fusion (liquid to solid) exceeds the ideal gas's change in enthalpy to absolute zero. In the quantum-mechanical description, matter (solid) at absolute zero is in its ground state, the point of lowest internal energy.

The laws of thermodynamics dictate that absolute zero cannot be reached using only thermodynamic means, as the temperature of the substance being cooled approaches the temperature of the cooling agent asymptotically. A system at absolute zero still possesses quantum mechanical zero-point energy, the energy of its ground state at absolute zero. The kinetic energy of the ground state cannot be removed.

Scientists have achieved temperatures extremely close to absolute zero, where matter exhibits quantum effects such as superconductivity and superfluidity.




So, if you are waiting for the temperature to get to °K before you add antifreeze to your water, you will have a LONG wait!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 08:08 pm:

Jay. I have not been on the dark side of the moon to check out a witch's ti$$ but I know it is cold

Absolute zero has been calculated by many as the minimum enthalpy and entropy of an ideal gas exists.
It represents a state of no energy - somewhat like when I get up in the morning.
Any person that studies thermodynamics knows this trivial fact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 08:37 pm:

So, -459 f is zero and yet somehow -459 f seems to be a value and zero doesn't. At any rate 32 F is 0 C but -459 F is 0. And 0 F is 0 F. And I'll be dang if -273.15 C is -459.67 F is 0.

And I still say zero is the absence of nothing at all and, you all know you can't refute that. So 32, -459.67 and -273.15 are nothing because 0 is nothing and they all =zero.

I'll bet you guys can understand now how I graduated from the 8th grade.

Now, I'd like to start a conversation of how 1 & 25.4 and 2.54 all equal 1. And 25.4 multiplied by .03937 also = something real close to one. And no mater how hard you try, there's no such thing as a half of a hole.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 09:39 pm:

What gets me is that one degree and for that matter, minus one degree are singular whereas ZERO, which is nothing, is plural. Zero degrees !!! What sense is that ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 11:07 pm:

DAVE; you sir, understand the puzzle that is life!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Sunday, January 10, 2016 - 11:25 pm:

My understanding was that it was a cold winters day when Fahrenheit put his thermometer together. 0 was the outside temperature and 100 was his wife's temperature. (She had a slight fever that day). Ain't science and history fun?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 12:32 am:

Zero is not nothing, it is something; it is the absence of quantity.

The Romans, who gave us their Roman Numerals (1 = I, 5 =V, 10 = X) had no numeral for the absence of quantity. The did, of course have the concept of the lack of things: have two apples and eat both then you have no apples, but they did not have a numeral, a number to represent that.

The numeral zero (0) and all of the rest of the numbers on your computer keyboard, on your phone, clocks, and everything are called Arabic Numerals and were developed by, yes, that's right; the Arabs. Unknown to most of the Western World the Middle East was home to gifted mathematicians, scientists, and engineers at a time when Europe was reeling from the Black Death.

You just never know what obscure tidbits of information you may stumble over on this forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 12:47 am:

I believe Fahrenheit used the coldest thing he knew, mixture of snow and ether or some such thing, to determine his 0. The Celsius scale using the freezing point of water for 0 and the boiling point for 100 makes more sense, but the Fahrenheit scale was well established by the time it was devised.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 01:28 am:

There is one temperature scale that only uses positive numbers, Kelvin. Mostly used scientifically, though it's very easy to understand - it uses the absolute zero temperature as a starting point and Celsius degrees, so the freezing temperature for water is about 273.15 K and the boiling temperature 373.15 K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 02:10 am:

Well, looks like Winter has made it to the Forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 04:27 am:

Yeah, I love this place!
Virtually all measurements are recent human developments. They are based upon some inane historic human perception. The universe operates on atomic time/distance/speed functions we are only beginning to understand.

Then again. Maybe perception IS the only reality?
Do drive carefully. And enjoy the mysteries along the way. W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Pergande on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 04:48 am:

At my age of 67, all I can say is anything below 32 degrees is cold...and if it drops to 0... I am not going anywhere without a court order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 05:09 am:

Jack, At 66, I know what you mean!!!! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 08:38 am:

And now, we've been able to make a conversation out of nothing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 09:04 am:

LOL...cabin fever is definitely here! Already. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 09:41 am:

Yes, we have no Banana?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 10:36 am:

Consider temperature as a go-no go scale. Pick a number and that is the limit of comfort. And that will be your point of measure for future events.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 10:39 am:

To add to the confusion, a vacuum isn't really empty! :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Quantum_mechanics


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, January 11, 2016 - 12:02 pm:

(To add to the confusion, a vacuum isn't really empty!)

Mark, especially true of my wife's Vacuum. Am I the only one in the world who can change the D##* bag?


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