Brass screws: there are oval tops and round tops heads What screws are used for door sills?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Brass screws: there are oval tops and round tops heads What screws are used for door sills?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:31 am:

brass screws: there are oval tops and round tops heads? What screws are used for door sills?

Are oval tops are lower than round tops. Is that why they do not sell slotted flat tops over about #8?

Confused because the round tops I used on the sills are too high and just don;t look right or recess into the sill hole. The robe rail also does not look right with high round top screws.

Does this make sense?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:39 am:

What doesn't make sense is the fact you are not telling us what you are using them for. The correct terminology is round head, and oval head, slotted, and yes they do sell slotted screws above #8.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:45 am:

Flat head and oval head screws are countersunk screws.

Round head screws are not countersunk.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:57 am:

OOOOOH! The pictures help put it all into perspective.

I want counter sunk brass screws for the robe rail, door sills, and maybe others I cannot think about now that I am at work.

It appears that the oval head screws are the ones used back in the day?? But it seems like the flat head would be better?? A friend who restores 1912 Model T said oval or round (I forget) are used on the sills. I will check with him again.

What do you think?

This is for a 1912 touring restoration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 11:02 am:

Robert,

Two charts I find handy are copied here:

Machine Screw Head Forms. (The D in the formulas is the basic diameter of the screw. For example, a #10 screw is 0.190" diameter.)

machine screw dimensions

This image shows a number of additional head forms and modification of the standard heads.

head forms

I think the Oval head is the screw head you want to use for door sills, door stop straps, Touring and runabout tops, and anywhere you might other wise use a flat head screw. The oval head makes it less likely to snag on the screw head as you enter and exit the vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 11:03 am:

My local Ace Hardware store stocks oval head screws in brass up to #14. The door sills should be #9 about 3/4 inch long.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 06:00 pm:

Royce, do the oval head screws they stock have slotted heads or Phillips type? Are there any nickel plated ones? Can you get 3/4" x 4 or 5 gauge?

I need some to attach a heap of common sense type fasteners. I can only get Phillips head here, and they are plated steel.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 07:08 pm:

They are polished brass, slotted. No nickel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 07:23 pm:

Robert - I think the key thing is that oval head screws are designed to be countersunk, whereas the round head are NOT counter sunk. In other words, there are two reasons that the oval head would protrude less,.....the shape of the round head protrudes more than the shape of the oval head, plus the oval head sits lower yet due to being countersunk.

In retrospect, I'm guessing that the shape of the opening in the sills is probably indicative of countersinking. FWIW,......harold

P.S. You didn't ask for this, but a neat trick I like is to use an ovalhead screw with a "finishing washer" in some situations. That's handy when it's a screw that you might to remove once in awhile, and also, where you have an enlarged hole from just too many years of a screw being in place, the finishing washer allows a larger bearing area that will "hold" whereas a screw without the finishing washer would not hold. Also, for new construction, the oval head with the finishing washer does provide a nice "finished look" to your work. Again, FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 07:27 pm:

Erik & Thomas - Those are really nice "visual aids" you guys provided. Justifies the expression,...."a picture's worth a thousand words", right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 08:23 pm:

Royce, can you check availability of 3/4" 4 or 5 gauge oval heads for me? I thought I had plenty, but when I used 48 fasteners with two screws to each one, my box of one gross was rapidly depleted. I have a good friend with a 1913 tourer with Phillips heads all over. We would like to replace them.

Can you help?
Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 11:08 am:

When I bought my '13 roadster, a former owner had changed every screw, nut and bolt to the incorrect style. I spent a day putting everything back correctly. In addition, he loved acorn nuts, and removed all the original nuts everywhere. He even shortened a windshield support carriage bolt so he could put an acorn nut on it. Oh well! It's back to standard now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joss sanderson on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 11:30 am:

What year were Phillips screws first used? Agree tired of removing them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 01:11 pm:

From Wikipedia

Henry Frank Phillips (June 4, 1889 April 13, 1958)[1] was a U.S. businessman from Portland, Oregon. The Phillips-head ("crosshead") screw and screwdriver are named after him.[2]

The importance of the crosshead screw design lies in its self-centering property, useful on automated production lines that use powered screwdrivers.[3] Phillips' major contribution was in driving the crosshead concept forward to the point where it was adopted by screwmakers and automobile companies. The credited inventor of the Phillips screw was John P. Thompson.

Wiki link


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 01:16 pm:

I believe Phillips screws were developed around 1934; definitely post-T era!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

And then there is more recently invented Arthur's Head Screw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp14jarnTP0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 03:09 pm:

Allan

You can get single slot oval head in stainless, and I have found these to look just like nickel if you don't highly polish, just leave the as finished state.

Restoration Supply has these and others.

http://www.restorationstuff.com/shipping.html

They ship worldwide.





Nickel Common Sense, and stainless #4 oval head screw from Restoration Supply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 05:17 pm:

I used a lot of stainless screws when I did my '25. Can't tell it from nickel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 04:44 am:

Dan, they look great. Thanks for the tip. I'll see what I can arrange.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 11:36 am:

I like to use stainless steel screws in place of nickel plated screws, too. Beware than many nickel plated screws are brass, so they are not very strong!

If I an working with brass wood screws I will pre-drill the hole then use a stainless steel screw to "make threads" in the wood, then put in the brass screw. I have had brass screws twist off. When that happens you are really... well, you know.

Ford called polished oval head screws "French head."

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 04:33 pm:

Keith, I don't know where 'French head' comes from but we use the more clumsy but more accurate 'raised head countersunk'.
Dan's link to Restoration supply led me to what I need. Then I played on the Mc Master Carr site and found them at box lot prices which were even better,
and I can use my visa card for payment.

Thanks fellows.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 05:06 pm:

The term "French Head" is as Keith said namely a polished brass oval headed screw. They are called out specifically on Ford drawings by that name although I don't think that is the first place they were called that. I am sure it was a common name for them in the T era. Also #9 screws unfortunately were a very popular size that Ford used in lots of places with differing lengths. Ford used round head slotted, French Head slotted, flat head slotted and other sizes too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 10:39 pm:

Check out EBAY....that's where I find most of the not so easily found slotted, oval head, counter sunk screws that I have needed. They are usually available in brass or stainless and at better prices than other sources.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration