With many Vets here, and when there's discussion about the gall of some one claiming 'False Valor' to be 'Free Speech', this is something else I came across.
Not enjoyable reading....
My kids went through 18 years of boot camp - None of them are serving life in prison.
More asinine liberal spending. So, is the veterans administration going to compensate the sons for their loss? One more excuse for under-achieving.
My old man did his time in Korea, and brought boot camp home to raise up his own platoon.
He was a relentless asshole and I have very little nice to say or remember about him. But one
thing I'll never outrun was his ever-present hand to kick my ass if he caught us kids "slacking",
and as a result, I am a hardcore mission-oriented anal retentive perfectionist who questions
EVERYTHING ! I am the second hardest working fool I know, surpassed only by my friend Dan,
who somehow squeezes 48 hours out of every day.
I may not make a lot of dough - Dad really missed the boat when it came to guiding us kids
towards thinking about a career and all the things people need to do to make that happen, but
slackers we are not. Where is the part of this study that deals with the content of one's character ?
Oh yeah, .... we don't care about that anymore.
Maybe it is just the impact of being in the military that has this affect rather than any thing to do with seeing war/combat.
While my father served in WWII, I did not see any military contact of any time.
The character traits he instilled in me were for the greater good but could have been achieved in fairer and more reasonable ways.
Service made him a drinker and smoker all his life as well as nervy.
He was good honest man however even my mom says to this day his time in uniform changed him and he hardly could claim to say he saw heavy action.
Each person reacts to such experiences differently and sadly for him he did not recover, could be just the military BS you see in movies in boot camp that I feel hardly toughens everybody up the same and possibly more harm than good is done especially once they feel they own you.
Just my 2 cents worth...
This study is so flawed it's conclusions are almost laughable. No mention of the sample size, only restricted to subjects born in two years (51-52), by the author's own admissions it is full of caveats regarding its accuracy, yet it makes broad generalizations and presents them as "dogma" to support the Obama Administration's proposal of Community College for all. That's sort of like claiming that drivers in the muscle car era are more prone to speed because some of them owned and drove said cars. So the best way to help them would be to raise speed limits to assist them in expressing their need for speed. I wonder who funded this thing? I also wonder if I can get funded to do a study citing the effects of eating school lunches on constipation later in life.
One thing that I have learned, you can't lump everybody into the same group. Some things affect some people, some things don't. It took me 38 years to figure that out. I knew something wasn't right, but I couldn't relate to what was happening to me and other people. Nothing that I read about clicked with me. After my youngest son joined the Marines in '08, it all hit me, hard. Dave
You know, my cousin,who's father served in Vietnam,has not had a job that earned him less than 80,000 a year in at least 10 years. And always a company car to drive,and the last 7 years his office has been his desk in the closed in back porch. So there is some bunk here in this study.
Imho, The military changes people,from the ground up. They have to for them to do the job. But they don't bother changing them back into citizens with out all the bad memory's of what they did.
What a waste of government money...nothing new.Statisticians have the uncanny ability to make whatever point they want. Give them enough money and time and they will PROVE to you that the bumble bee cannot fly.(Aerodynamically impossible).
Garbage results. (Garbage in, Garbage out).
About as important and meaningful as the research done on the sex habits of the Brazilian tree climbing frog.
There is much more to consider than simply military service - in Vietnam or elsewhere.
What a disservice to those who served - and their offspring.
Ya, know that article is what I think can be summed up as a colossal crock of crap! Just more insanity by an inanely incompetent government that looks for moronic projects like this to fund. This study may have been valid if they'd of removed the Vietnam variable from the equation. How about the effects of their parents being Hippies, or Beatniks or something?
I knew a lot of folks who came back really messed up and screwed up from that war (and some of that was our own stuff that did it too). And it isn't as though that's not normal for the consequences of having to go to war, it's just that this one, the government betrayed their own solders...the idea wasn't to win, it was to see how long they could keep it going to maintain government spending for war toys. In know that sounds like a ludicrous thing to say, but I worked in the industry that made war toys and it seemed that the longer the war went the more demands for bigger and better weapons. Our final crowning toy was a WMD...trouble was it would kill us just as readily as it would kill them...it just depended upon the prevailing wind...and if the wind should change...well??? you know...oh well, business as usual.
Well, I don't have to worry about my kids. I was born in 1950.
My military time and being in Vietnam had no impact on them at all. If I was a year younger they'd be SOL.
As it turns out I've only got A 42 year old son who's spending this Winter in a homeless shelter. I've got a 35 year old daughter who refuses to talk to me and a 36 year old son who's been living on student loans in his own 20 year old mobile home for the last 10 years.
As a result of my time in Vietnam I was awarded a bronze star with oak leaf cluster (oak leaf cluster = 2nd bronze star), Army commendation medal with oak leaf cluster (again oak leaf cluster = 2nd Army commendation), Vietnam service ribbon and Vietnam campaign ribbon and 3 or 4 other trinkets.
I also came home with hepatitis C (it took 17 months of chemo-therapy to cure it). I've got significant hearing loss and tinnitus (the VA tells me it's not because I trained to be an artillery man or because of excessive amounts of gunfire) I have two genetically affected children with birth defects. I have a tumor in my head that caused headaches and blindness for two years before they found it and one on my adrenal gland that causes my blood pressure to be high and my potassium levels to go dangerously low. I've got chronic skin issues and my hands never heal. However my children's birth defects and my tumors and my skin issues weren't because of the agent orange I used to brush and shake off my clothes. I know that for a fact, because the VA told me so.
In 1996 I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. My first decent job after the service last 18 years then after working in 10 different shops over a 12 year period of time the VA determined I was unemployable. My first marriage failed after 18 months and my second marriage failed after 33 years. Currently I live with a dog and 2 cats in my own double wide in the same trailer park as my son. I seldom leave the house except to have a cup of coffee with my neighbor. I have been known to show a bit of a temper that I struggle to keep in check. People think I'm moody, Hah!
My only complaints are having to take medicine to stop the nightmares and other medicine to help me sleep, the hepatitis C screwed my liver up, I'm taking antidepressants and anti-anxiety pills and a few other miscellaneous medications to control my blood pressure and other maladies.
I've had 5 back surgeries. The last two was to correct the broken L2,L3,L4 and L5 lumbar vertebrae. The first three were because of degenerative disc disease. Currently I've got another blown disc that I'm trying to get the VA Medical Center to correct.
Because of the Hepatitis C, the PTSD, the broken weak back and disc disease, and being unemployable, the VA and Social Security decided to put me on 100% disability. I had to retire when I was 58 years old.
So, all in all, because I was born in 1950, my time in the military and in Vietnam had absolutely zero affect on me or my children. And at 65 years old, I've never been happier.
Hey, Mike! You're a survivor!! And thanks for your service and sacrifices.
Figures never lie, But liars sometimes figure! Told to me by my drill sergeant when I was 17.
The Washington Post Hole will always try to turn any subject into a socioeconomic cause/effect situation. It's their liberal view of the world's problems as they see it. Change "Vietnam Veteran" in the article to a race or ethnic group of your choosing and it reads like any other "throw more money at it" problem. The fact that they include the last paragraph just proves WP is campaigning for a continued liberal position for OUR government leaders.
When I started the job that turned out to be my life career, back in the early 70's, many of the older guys had either served (Korea I guess) or were the products of those that served before them. I saw, over the next 25+ years, a falling off of the ability to follow orders. Took a while to figure it out but I now believe the lack of structure which wasn't passed down by parents who didn't serve was the cause.
The whole world changed during Viet Nam. whether or not the parents served. There was a change in the culture. That was when the "Hippie" emerged. They had the slogan "don't trust anyone over 30". When the servicemen returned, they were greeted by disgust. Some from that era still sadly have the same attitude.
There are so many variables when looking at how we've changed over the past 50 or 60 years I don't believe it's possible to isolate "causes" and "effects". I know many families who had their children in the '70s like my wife and I did where one child turned out honest, hard working and motivated to do things that are based on high standards and another, with the same parents and same upbringing, who turned out a slug.
The world did change during the Vietnam Nam war, but the war wasn't the only significant influencing factor. In the 1960's we saw the assassination of national figures, the advent of the drug culture, the appearance of birth control pills, the space race culminating with the first lunar landing, and many other things that altered how we see the world we live in.
Unfortunately many folks failed to make a smooth transition from the previous more well defined social structure to the very different and much less structured world we live in today.
Just my $0.02 worth.