Wire wheels on small drums with AC brakes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Wire wheels on small drums with AC brakes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 09:04 pm:

Ok ok. I know that subject sounds crazy but I have in fact done exactly that. I have a 20's rear end on my brass speedster and started out with wood wheels. As a result of going faster I added AC brakes. Well, then I wanted to swap to wire wheels. I couldn't afford some Mclarens but I found a solid set of 5 stock T wheels along with hubs. Ok, instant problem - large drums on a small drum setup. SO! I came up with this nifty idea.



New small drums with longer lug studs and a spacer on the rear hunbs and BAM I'm in business. This whole thing works perfectly. I've got stock T wire wheels and small drum AC brakes.

BUT

You knew that was coming. At 62 mph my rear end starts hopping like I have a seriously super out of balance wheel. I did my best to center the spacers but they're solid steel and very heavy. I'm pretty sure that they're my culprits because my wheels have been balanced. I've taken them to several engine shops and no one can balance them for me cause everyone needs a shaft that runs through both sides. I do have two pieces of worn out axles and I was hoping that a length of shaft on one side would work. Alas, it will not.



So here's what I'm thinking in order to get a single shaft that runs through my modified hubs: get both axle ends turned down to one size (like 1.2" or whatever, the specific number doesn't matter), then have the non-tapered end of one shaft cut off square, then drilled and threaded so it will screw onto the other axle shaft!



Assuming a machine shop can drill and tap this straight, I should be able to use this to have these hubs balanced. At least that's what I think and wanted to see what other folks thought before I went down this road.

Disclaimer: obviously, the best thing would be a 26/27 rear end and large drum hubs with a stock setup and accessory brakes to work that. But I don't have all of that or an easy way to get that. My current rear end is freshly rebuilt. So folks with that advice need not respond.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 09:24 pm:

Seth, How about getting a solid straight shaft the size of the threaded end of the T axle shaft (small enough to go thru the hubs small end) Then have a sleeve made to slide over the small long shaft. Have it a nice sliding fit or even a light interference fit. It will not need to come off again. Then cut a taper on the sleeve you just made to match the hub taper. Or you could just machine a new shaft with a taper in the center out of one piece. It is a basic lathe turning process to make the mandrel with a taper in the middle and small shafts on both ends, that is if you know someone with a lathe, that could do it at a reasonable price. good luck ... Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 09:33 pm:

That's an excellent idea. That's probably more likely to be nice and straight compared to what I was thinking of doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 09:41 pm:

here is a quick sketch

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 09:57 pm:

Simplest way would be to slow down. :-) KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:06 pm:

Glad to see you back and posting Seth, i see you moved. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Kramer on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:07 pm:

Why not just turn off the threads on the end of that cut off axle and then turn a small area the same diameter some where near the other end. Set up a knife edge balance to fit your turned spots. Make sure you mark an index on all parts you balance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:13 pm:

Haha John, when I moved I had to leave my T behind and it just drove me crazy to get on the board when I couldn't mess with mine at all. I finally got her back over Christmas break and now I can't help but be on the board constantly again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 10:19 pm:

I like Jerry's idea. Simple and cheap ... Good idea Jerry ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 11:02 pm:

Your spacers are NOT your culprits, at least not due to their balance. The problem is, that the nose of the hub needs to fit nicely into the nose of the wire wheel, to center it. Your spacer moves the wheel out too far for the hub nose to engage with it properly. The lug nuts alone are not enough and your wheels are running slightly eccentric. Additionally, when cornering, the hub nose gives support to the outer end of the wire wheel hub, thereby relieving stress on the flange of the wheel hub and the 5 lug mounting holes, which can develop cracks even under proper circumstances.

Another concern is when you hit a large bump or pothole. You'll have only the 5 studs to bear that shock load. When installed correctly, that load is transferred directly to the hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 11:05 pm:

Your extended studs also appear to get no support from the large holes in the spacer. The shock load I mentioned above will cause the overly extended studs to deflect and will shift the location of the wheel, causing at the very least, imbalance and, at the very worst, broken studs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Friday, January 15, 2016 - 11:51 pm:

Okay - given this new info Jerry, what would you recommend I do to make it work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 12:32 am:

I'm wide open to any suggestions on how to fix this. I've been mulling it over ever since I read Jerry's info.

I got some calipers out and that nose is 2 5/16" wide. The spacers are 1" thick. Could I somehow extend the nose 1" but leave enough room inside for the axle nut and a socket? I don't know if I could find a piece of pipe exactly 2 5/16" OD, but supposing I could, then weld it on the inside edge to both connect it to the hub and then weld further up the inside edge to strengthen it? I don't know. Lol at this point I'm just spit balling until someone has a better idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 01:26 am:

Seth, if it was me, I'd just find a set of big drum brakes, which would have more stopping power to boot. Seems to me you're going to have nearly as much in this setup if not more, along with a LOT more headaches! JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 01:33 am:

? Big drum rear end? Big drum rear brakes? I am running them on my 15 with wire wheels. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 07:27 am:

Well, so far the only thing I've spent is money on is the new studs and a friend sold me the spacers for really cheap ~ $75. I mean the steel alone that they used would cost me more than that of I had to buy it somewhere.

I feel like I'm really close to having what I've got work right. Heck, just knowing what my real problem is really helps me out.

Here's my problem(s) with swapping to a big drum rear end:

That means new big drums, new lug studs, new to me big drum housing, new emergency brake shoes, new accessory brakes, new thrust washers (and all this assuming I just gut my current rear end and swap everything over to the new housings) . . . I get that in terms of problem solving this is the path of least resistance but fellas - if I could afford to throw money at all my T problems and swap something like all of this stuff over just because I'm hitting a snag . . . Lol I wouldn't post questions like my original one on the board. I'd just buy everything and go on my merry way. I mean don't get me wrong - I'd be happy to go this route if it were remotely affordable or I lived kinda near someone who said "Hey I've got this big drum rear end with accessory brakes but I need a small drum rear, let's swap" lol.

I'm thinking if I can find me a a piece of steel or pipe and center it on that nose I could weld it from inside and out and then smooth the outside, that might work. I'll just drill a hole in the new extended nose so I have access to add a cotter pin to the axel nut.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 08:10 am:

Seth what part of Alabama, where the current National Champions of D1 football are from, do you live. So my 2 cents, Jerry is right! Looking at your speedster and then reading your post of speeds in excess of 60 mph, you will have tremendous stress on the rear axle. You need a large drum rear axle or a small drum with Disc Bakes if you enjoy life. I live in south Mississippi around Hattiesburg/Laurel area. Send me an email and I'll give you my number. John Tannehill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 09:57 am:

Seth
You have widen your stance ar the rear
Might not changed width much but we're the wheel mounts the studs when mounting your wheel will change location .
What you need is a centering support ring at the wheel adapter spacer
I have used them to solve this with model A using later brakes
Speedway motors sell them but unsure if they fit a T wire I only use on A wires
The further you out on the stud from it mount the more flex or off center you can get
The only adapters I never needed them on was the ones I made for my TT


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 10:00 am:

The other thing is have you checked the slop in you axels at the outer bearing.
Adding a heavier wheel or wider stance increase the street or flex as well


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 11:24 am:

Put Dynabeads in your tires. If the problem is imbalance, it should solve it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 12:06 pm:

Seth: Hey, I have a pair of BIG drum housing laying in front of my shop, should also have the radius rods. Want to trade your small drum housing? I am in B'ham Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 12:51 pm:

John I'm in Huntsville, so very north Alabama. I grew up a Georgia Tech fan and hope to get my masters there. Ha, we were uh, terrible this year so I didn't watch a lot of college football. Normally I do. The Tide have no excuse not to be the national champs every year since they're players don't have to learn anything but football, but that's a whole other debate.

I thought the same thing about maybe for some crazy reason my axles are moving, but they're riding in fairly new modern bearings. I threw the dial up on them anyway and I can't see the needle move but maybe a fraction of a hair if even that. They're rock solid. I don't think that's the problem.

Tom I have balance beads in all of the tubes and the wire wheels themselves were spin balanced without tubes or tires mounted so I didn't think that was my problem either. That's why my only thought was maybe it was the spacers since that's the only think back there not balanced.

I'm thinking based on Jerry's info that I'm going to measure all of the studs and make sure they're as perfectly centered as possible and then weld up them just inside the edge where they stick through the spacers, that should lock them in place and keep them from flexing any. Then I'm gonna extend the nose of the hub an inch. It won't cost me hardly anything to do any of that and then I'll run her up to speed and see if that's fixed it.

Dan, if this doesn't work I'll definitely take you up on that offer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 11:17 am:

Seth,

I wouldn't weld the studs. There is a chance you might make them brittle. Just make some bushings that fit the holes in your spacers snuggly and also fit closely over the studs. Tap them in you the studs should be more solid. I would then go with the solution you mentioned earlier, welding an extension on the hub that has a recess for the nut. I did exactly this, but for a different reason, when restoring my Model N. I would think that this would be a good solution for you.

P.S. Drill an access hole through the sleeve extension so you can still put the cotter pin in. Also, don't slide the sleeve so far back that you no longer have a groove in the hub nose. You may still need something to grab with a puller, if need be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 11:45 am:

Like this....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 11:48 am:

Oops, "Tap them in AND the studs should be more solid"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 02:01 pm:

Jerry I think I can get that done. I've measured the hub nose and it's 2.3125" (5/16) OD. I haven't been able to find any kind of steel tubing that is that diameter. Maybe something 2.375" and then turn it down?

Does anyone have a source for something that diameter?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 02:16 pm:

Seth,

That sounds like a plan. Yes, turn it down after it's welded on. You might check your wheel hub I.D. also and tailor your sleeve diameter a bit to compensate for wear.

Another thought comes to mind as well. I have a 26 wire wheel that a buddy of my dad's repaired for him. The bead area was rusted out in one spot and he fixed it by puddling the bead full of brass. It works good but is a mile out of balance. I use it only as a spare. Might be good to look closely at your wheels for a similar past repair. (Although if it takes 62 mph to find the problem it's probably not the cause. Mine would probably shake at 6.2 mph.) None of this changes my recommendations above however.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 02:30 pm:

Seth, if the problem is imbalance, even of the spacer, the Dynabeads should cure it (assuming that you have enough of them). If the problem is radial run-out, then it wouldn't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 08:22 pm:

I think you guys have found the root problem. We just purchased a set of McClaren wire wheels and as most know they mate directly onto the model T wood wheel hub. McClaren is very specific not to paint the inside of the spoke wheels or the hubs. The wheel is quite a tight fit on the hub, the wheel is resting on the hub and is not carried by the six bolts as I had originally thought. The six bolts just hold the wheel into the hub. Of course I'm just a dumb retired electrical engineer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 08:36 pm:

I'm going to measure all of my wire wheels and make sure the hubs get machined to the largest diameter that will fit in all 4 wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

Tony those McClaren wheels were what I really wanted. Use my good wood wheel hubs and set of 5 Hayes demountable rims. But, these were SO much more affordable and have been good, just need to solve this last problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 08:58 pm:

Seth have you checked the wheels run true and are round


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

This on the yellow speedster you posted on another thread
Did you take any leaves out of the spring might be a bounce issue if it soft spring pak


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Stolpestad on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 07:24 am:

Seth, you can get some steel at your local steel house. Since you are welding on it I would get some 4130 (chrome-moly) TGP (turned, ground and polished. That will come in the 15/16" exactly and with the 2" at a +2 -0 tolerance on the diameter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Stolpestad on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

Correct tolerance on the diameter is +0-.002 on the 2". You could also go with Cold Drawn 4130 steel. Keep the carbon content low if welding. Sorry about that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 08:15 pm:

Hey Craig, this ia good info. I have one machinist I'm supposed to talk to tomorrow. If he wants me to pick the steel up myself I'll go with that.

I only need two pieces about 1.5" long, 2.375" OD and about 1.75" ID. Although the guy at the shop may have something close. If this one doesn't work out I have another guy to talk to this coming Monday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 11:34 am:

Good heavens! This machine shop work is for the birds. $60 an hour, and the guy guesses 4-5ish hours per hub. That's like $600! Goodness gracious. I'm going to have to save up a bit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 11:58 am:

I had a new set (1 pr.) of rear hubs machined for my Racer disc wheels - I paid double that about 4 years ago !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 03:06 pm:

Seth, with some luck you can find an old but still good lathe with some tooling on craigslist for about the same money and have fun doing it yourself instead - and by the next time you need the lathe, you have it for free :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

Yeah, I thought of that too. I'd be a lot more tempted to go that route if I had my dad's welder with me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Saturday, January 30, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

Hey hey! Got my hubs worked on.





Monday I'll go get a tag and then take her out on the road and see how she does at 60+.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Sunday, January 31, 2016 - 03:18 pm:

Be careful!


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