A question about 1909 Mufflers...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: A question about 1909 Mufflers...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 06:33 pm:

I've been looking at a lot of the material concerning the 1909's, mainly the assemblies. One perplexing item (gee only one? yeah right) is the muffler. Why is it wrapped with that insulating material? Is it because the body is wood? Or is it because the muffler shells are not welded closed, you just form them into a tube with the ends and use the insulating material and those bands to hold them closed? Or is it that the inner shells are welded closed and the outer one needs the wrap to hold it closed and keep the exhaust from escaping through the sides of the muffler?

I know pretty much what the ends look like (from the catalog pictures) but we all know that what's in the catalogs in not necessarily what's really in any of the cars...so if anybody has pictures of the ends and their brackets, please post them. Also I'm assuming that the Canadian cars were different from the American cars, or was there any difference yet? Somebody told me once that Canadian cars were all left hand drive and were converted to right hand drive when they got to Canada or elsewhere...I don't know if that's true or not, but it's worth looking into I suppose.

Damn I'm wishing I paid more attention to that nice little 1909 on the HME I saw, but I was too busy ogling his nice red paint job and jabbering about all the lovely brass to pay better attention to what was actually before me...oh well I suppose I'll run into that car again or one like it, but for now I'll ask you guys, surely one of you early car guys knows? I'd appreciate any information you give me. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 07:01 pm:

The shells were never welded for any years they were just crimped closed. The insulating material was used up to about 1917. More I think it was sound deadner as much as any thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 07:15 pm:

From what I've read around 1919 the outer shell was welded closed and that's when the designs changed, so I guess the years previous to 1919 would've had that material available, although none of the catalog pictures show it nor is it called out on the past lists for anything further along than 1914...I suppose it may have been optional though.

Anybody got a picture of a muffler without that material wrapped around it? Particularly the side view?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 08:04 pm:

Hum not aware of any muffle shell being welded along the seam except for some sold today and others by us after muffler go boom. :-) Maybe it was tried for a short while. (?)
My original muffler/shell(s) from my 1921 that was on the car sure are not. It is the one with the through pipe. :-)
Right now I have the cast ends (1914-1917) with tail pipe on mine but with the wrong shells and no wrap. The mounts were broke off at the casting so I ground off and installed the pressed metal brackets used from 09 to about about 1914. Even with photos would not tell you much except there is a lip around each end to keep the material from sliding off.
I used them on because I had them and it was easy way to add a tail pipe. (made from brass toilet over flow tube)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 08:39 pm:

I just went out and took the 1921 muffler apart. I am wrong, the 2 shells do look to be spot welded in several places along the seam. I also checked Bruce's book and it says the muffler wrap was discontinued in 1917.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

I am certainly not the expert on this. You probably know '09s a lot better than I do. Like Mark G said, I am fairly sure that the wrapping was more for sound deadening than anything else. It was very common on most marques of automobiles before about 1912, and some cars well into the '30s.
What I recall from past discussions on this forum is that Ford archive records indicate that the wrapping ended about 1914. However, factory photographic evidence (along with several surviving original cars) clearly show that at least some Ts had the wrapping at least into 1917. We can discuss that discrepancy for as long as you like. However, if you want to win trophies? Check and follow the MTFCI judging guidelines because they are the most widely accepted. If you just want your car to be right? 1909 through 1912, definitely wrapped. 1913 through 1919, whichever floats your boat, and expect someone to disagree. 1920 and later, no wrapping.
That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it until someone comes up with solid evidence otherwise.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

Here is the 1909 Parts book page with the muffler.

Seems that the asbestos wrap was for some heat protection, these early mufflers with the press steel brackets did fit the muffler higher up under the wood body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 09:10 pm:

And...for the muffler wrap

Here is a very original 1915 at Hershey a few years ago. Evidence of original wrap and straps on the blown muffler, and how the muffler tubes were made.



This '15's correct dash


Underside


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 09:10 pm:

Dan, I have this picture too, but it doesn't tell me much about that outer casing. But it looks like none of them were welded just like Mark said...hmmm, guess this means I'm going to have to add 4038 (wrap) and 4039 (bands) to my 1917-1918 muffler drawing as well. :-)

OK, lets talk 1915, does anybody know what the ends look like for 1915-1916? That particular picture is missing from Bruce's catalog, mines got the 1919-1921 pasted over top of it. From other sources I've got though, it seems like the 1914 has a bent exit pipe on it whereas the 1915 has a straight exit tail pipe on it...I'm assuming that goes till 1916 as well...right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 09:44 pm:

Martin

If you look at the 1915 muffler in last picture it shows the outer shell 'blown'. Note the formed rolling that crimps the sheet into the shell, and its spot electrical welded together at those 3 dark spots seen.

I'll search for some pics of the front casting plate and rear plate with exhaust pipe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 09:48 pm:



Sept 1912 Parts List page


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 09:55 pm:

Martin

Bruce did a lot of research, its in his CD,
here are just few of the many change dates he lists for the muffler.

Nov 1913 straight exhaust pipe from earlier curved

Dec 1916 asbestos wrap discontinued

April 1917 single bolt muffler used


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Saturday, January 16, 2016 - 10:10 pm:

The original outer shell on on my 1914 was not welded. It was merely crimped much as stove pipe is crimped.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 05:58 am:

Here is a description on a change in the muffler shell construction from Bruce's book on page 554:

descr-pg.554

11-13-1

11-13-2

The 1914-16 muffler ends:

14-16-1

14-16-2

14-16-3

14-16-4

14-16-5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 10:27 am:

It would be nice if Langs would sell the straps separately. They are no longer available in hardware stores. I got a friend to make some up a few years back, and they are on my '13 roadster now. Thanks Ward!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 10:29 am:

Some more trivia. I've noticed the middle shell has two big holes in it on the late T's, whereas the early ones have four smaller holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

I have Bruce's CD's but I wish I also had a set of his books as well. Sometimes books are just better suited for looking things up than calling up a lot of different PDF's on the computer. Oh don't get me wrong, I love the CD's and I also downloaded all the PDF Cimorelli files as well (just can't have too much information ya know), plus everything you guys post here on any of the subjects that has pictures of Model T parts I also file away...source material for future drawings. :-)

Those brackets, do they fit over the frame channel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 08:38 pm:

The 1909-13 brackets mount inside the frame channel.

12Muff-1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 10:55 pm:

Phil, 1913 ans 1914 are basically the same muffler aren't they? Wouldn't 1914 also mount like the 1913 does?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 12:17 am:

Gents

09-10 Mufflers are different to later. The very first had a large boss to hold the hold the exhaust pipe in place and were closer to the floor boards and or frame, with shorter pressed steel brackets as discussed here earlier. You can see the boss in the following early 09 parts book photo.



I'm not sure, but even earlier ones may have had a nut to hold packing there. does anyone have any details on this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 12:19 am:

Not sure exactly when the change came about, but in say early-mid 1909 the type in the pic above changed to the following with longer pressed steel brackets and the usual mount for the exhaust Pipe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 12:26 am:

The important thing to note is that the above two images showing the early mufflers, had the external tube fitting "inside" the cast muffler ends and not "outside" as in later cast end mufflers. This style was used in mid 09 and through 10 and may have even been used a bit later


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 12:30 am:

Here is a slightly better photo of the Tube inside the muffler end


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 01:46 am:

Phil's posting of the factory letter stating the change to spot welding the shells together rather than riveting as previously has me wondering. Has anyone seen riveted shells? I have no experience of this on our Canadian sourced cars.

Neither riveting or welding is necessary if you have shells rolled in stainless steel. The toughness of this means it will withstand backfires with impunity. Once it has been painted with heat proof black it just goes on and on.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 02:29 am:

Mark, on the slim picture you mention a "tube inside the muffler" and all I see is a over large boss without a tube pressed into it like on the cast ends with bracket. Are you saying that inside the shells there is a tail pipe that ends at the boss?



Looking at 1201, you can see that this boss is cast into the end plate and that there is a baffle just behind it...where is the tube you're are mentioning? Or are you referring to the exit boss as the "tube"?

Also on the front plate, does the pipe fit within the opening or get clamped to the outside of it? Is that some sort of packing nut on the front plate opening?
Or is the front plate opening machined?
Was this muffler wrapped also?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 03:45 am:

Martin

If you look closely at the photo, the outer tube sits inside the muffler castings.

Looking at the picture below, the outer tube sits on the ridge on the outside of the muffler castings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 04:30 am:

Oh, you mean the tail pipe? That's the one that is tapered and bent down slightly too isn't it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 06:57 am:

Martin

If you look at the very outside diameter of part numbers 1201 & 1202, and the biggest diameter muffler shell (part 1203 in the parts book-there are 3 sizes).

1909-10 and possibly early 11: the large muffler shell 1203 fits "inside" the outer lip on both ends 1201 & 1202

1911 and later cast mufflers: the large muffler shell 1203 fits "outside" the outer lip on both ends 1201 & 1202



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 09:45 am:

So is the 1909 outer muffler shell still 5"?
I learned something from Phil Mino yesterday in an email, that the new style '14 muffler is mounted beneath the lower frame rail and not the upper frame rail as I assumed! That explains why there is more of a bend at the rear of the exhaust pipes from '14-16 that the earlier pipes. From the research I've done, there appears to have been at least three different exhaust pipes used from '13-20. Also, the '14 and later frames still had the upper muffler bracket holes drilled in the frames for the earlier style muffler. I am currently working on the teens flanged exhaust pipes, but have no idea when my first sample will be ready.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 07:23 am:

Allan, I get how the shells go together, I was wondering about the pipe. Does it fit inside 1202's opening or outside of it and then held there with some sort of packing nut? I suppose I just draw it and then you guys can correct it.

Another question...on shell 1205 is there 4 holes or just 2? looks like 2 to me, but those catalog drawings are not really the best. They were designed round the fact that you had the bloody part in front of you already, not trying to archeologically figure out what it looked like from the picture. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 11:56 am:

I had the pleasure of looking at Kim's very early 1909 muffler yesterday, and it is exactly as pictured above. Nothing like a '10. Even the sheet metal brackets are different.
BTW, pertaining to the '13-16 muffler mounting they used the upper crankcase arm/lower steering box bolt to mount the mufflers to the frame, and manifold clamp nuts to secure them, with a cotter pin. This is from two known untouched '13-14 cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 01:17 pm:

Well, looking at the way the early mufflers mounted, I now understand why the muffler pipe bends are different from the later, through muffler pipe. Ah Ha! as they say, "Paul Harvey Time" (the rest of the story).


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