Old Photo - British Columbia

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Old Photo - British Columbia
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 03:10 am:

A photo of a car in B.C., originally posted on another Forum, but reproduced here with the owner's permission.



Caption- "old photo of the original owner of our property, Bob Grant and his mom and sisters
I found this Model T buried with a huge tree growing through it .
cheers
Hank"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 03:42 am:

Interesting car. Canadian left hand drive probably, with the driver's door. Pretty beat up, looks like a pickup. Clothing looks to be 1950s maybe.
I wonder if it could still be restored?
Thank you Dane H!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 08:07 am:

Wayne, what about the slant of the windshield? What year Model t do you think it is?

Happy motoring,

Warren


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 09:23 am:

Still learning my way around model years visually, but I'd say '23-'25? But that windshield sure has an excessive amount of slope in it to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 07:20 pm:

The windshield definitely has excessive slant. Whether it was deliberate or accidental? Would only be a guess. I guess deliberate. Probably heated the brackets and bent them back to give the car a racier look! It would be pretty difficult to bend them accidentally and not break the glass (they may have removed the glass even to heat and bend?). I do think that it started out as a standard Canadian windshield.
As to the year. It appears to be a high radiator. That would indicate '24 or '25. I think Canadian was close to USA on that feature. The driver's door hinge does appear to be the "unequal" length hinge. For USA production, that would indicate 1924, but not be conclusive as there was quite a bit of crossover and carryover on that detail even in the USA. The big question to me, is did Canada make that change similar to, mostly before, or mostly after the USA cars?????
So much more to learn about the Canadian differences. I do hope that Hap and others attempting to re-chronicle these changes are following this one.
Thank you Hap, Dane H, and all!!!!!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, January 17, 2016 - 07:30 pm:

My apologies to Russ Furstnow. I suddenly remembered that he is one of the several people trying to chronicle the Canadian changes for the MTFCI Judging Guidelines!
Also to a few others I forgot to mention.
Thank you all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 12:05 pm:

Dane,

Thank you for posting this and so many other photos.

Wayne,

Bottom Line Up Front:

1. Would you (and anyone else that would like to contribute) please send me links to photos of Canadian cars – especially early photos of nearly new cars etc. when you spot on the forum or other locations?

2. I agree with you that it is most likely a 1924ish Canadian car “IF” For of Canada followed the USA timeline for switching to the equal length hinges. But – I don’t have that documented. But I do think it is likely -- based one what I have read this morning. I think the Price List of Parts may help us document this area. That is one reason I like to look at these photos and threads--they help me discover new information. I’ll try to start a separate thread for that question. But there are several other projects in front of that one on to today’s “to do list.”

Additional details for those with a full cup of coffee.

Yes, there are several of us trying to collect information on the Canadian assembled Model Ts. Russ Furstnow is working to compile a Canadian supplement for use with the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. And I fully support that effort! And there are some others of us that are also trying to gather information on the Canadian as well as other Australian, Argentina, British, ... New Zealand etc assembled Ts. I know I can never read all the threads so I and others may miss some of them that would be helpful. So if anyone sees an Australian, Argentina, British, Canadian, ... New Zealand photo of a nearly new T, or even a later photo such as the one above and if you don't see a comment from me, please drop me a note. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile. My e-mail address is the 3rd line down or you can send a private message if you prefer. Just paste in the link and title and I should be able to find it. There is a slim chance I'll be flooded with too many e-mails but I suspect it will work out fine. And I would much rather have 3 e-mails about a “puzzle piece” that would tie several other pieces together than to miss that one.

I agree with Wayne that "If" it was a USA car -- the lipped front fenders designed to meet up with the missing radiator apron in the photo above along with what appears to be the higher cowl [the beading usually appears more straight on the high cowl than the low cowl – would indicate 1924-25. [Note I'm not very good a telling the difference from just the look of the cowl between a 1924-25 – I still need to see more of those next to each other etc.] . And for USA the unequal hinges indicate early 1924 to late 1924 model year. The posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/114100.html has a Model T with an engine serial number in Aug 1924 that had the equal length hinges. That is at that transition point. It could be called a late 1924 or an early 1925.

But we don't know if the engine with the Aug serial was installed in Aug or if it was installed a little later. There are a lot of variables. During the 1920s most engines would NOT have been installed in a car the same day the engine was assembled. The number would have been included in the serial number range recorded in the Engine log book that day – but it likely would not have made it into a vehicle that day. On page 466 of Bruce’s Book “Model T Ford” it has a listing for Model T production. The earlier listing use fiscal year and starting in 1920 they switched over to calendar year. If we look at Calendar year 1924 at the USA only numbers we see 1,790,278 Model Ts (includes TT and T chassis as well as bodied vehicles) were produced. Of that number, only 112,702 (again T, TT, chassis and bodied vehicles) were assembled at the main Highland Park Plant in the Detroit area. So only a little over 6 percent of the Model Ts were assembled there during calendar year 1924. The other 94% would “Not” have had the car assembled the same day as the engine – because the engine had to be loaded from the main engine plant, shipped to the assembly plant, unloaded, placed into line for assembly. There may have been a plant close enough that it could get the engines the same day – but most clearly are not. And any of them shipped by water (one of Fords preferred methods because it was less expensive if there were good ports and waterways to get there) it would take longer.

Additionally while the bulk of the USA engines were assembled in the Detroit area ( in the 1920s at Highland Park, then Highland Park and River Rouge and finally just the River Rouge plant) the engine could also have been assembled at a branch plant using the serial number that was shipped to them previously. In that case Bruce on page 501 states, “As a result, while the Highland Park (or, later, the Rouge Plant) assembled engines on the days indicated, other blocks of engine might have been assembled days or weeks later.”

+++++++++++++
And in some cases Ford was opening a new branch plant. In those cases engine may have been stored for more than 30 days. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm where it says:

MAR 18, 1924 Letter from Chicago Branch
"We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

+++++++++++++
So in most cases it is impossible to pin down an exact data of when a USA car was assembled unless it is listed with the shipping invoices. That list ends approximately Oct 10 , 1911 ref page 499 Bruce’s book. [Note, the shipping invoices contain the actual date the car was manufactured. Ref page 478 of Bruce’s book “Model T Ford” and the entry for serial #1. The car was manufactured on Sep 27, 1908 and shipped Oct 1, 1908. The column that is listed in his book shows the manufactured date and NOT the shipping date. There are later ledgers that record shipping dates for about 20% or so of the cars up to Jan 1915 or so. But those are shipping dates and not manufactured dates (but are obviously very close or the same as production ramped up.)

For Canadian cars we have significantly less detailed information -- i.e. we have monthly and not daily engine serial number listings. And for at least the first 7 years it is clearly representative and not exact. For example from Jul 31 1913 to Jul 31, 1919 they always stopped with “00” at the end. What are the odds of that happening? Great if you direct that engine production will stop at engine number 69,999 and then we will wait until Jul 31, 1916 to stamp engine number 70,000 but that sounds very unlikely. And that is the case for the serial numbers listed for the first 7 years in a row. Some end in “00” some in “000” but none end with any number ending in 1 to 99.

And if anybody every reads these longer postings of mine (sometimes I wonder if I’m just posting my notes out there to help me find them using Google later) and wishes I would keep posting them or that I would stop posting them please let me know. Just click on my name and shoot me an e-mail (address is the 3rd line down or a private message (PM)).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 02:41 pm:

Hap, the only postings I find more interesting than yours are the old photos so I hope you keep posting them. I'm usually surrounded by Canadian cars during the driving season and I'm going to try and gather some data on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 02:52 pm:

Wayne
Canadian open cars by '21 had the post type windshield and it is different from the US version in that both the top and bottom halfes were hinged to swivel open


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 03:30 pm:

Hap,

Please keep posting! Although I don't comment on most of your postings (I'm not qualified as my knowledge of T's is very limited) I do enjoy your comments and use it as a learning tool. I read every one of your postings to learn more about Model T's.

THANKS FOR ALL YOU DO IN SUPPORT OF THIS HOBBY!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 09:29 pm:

Dave & Dennis – thank you for the encouragement & feedback. We all need that every now and then.

Wayne -- Les is correct that the Canadian windshield stanchions had both the lower and upper windshields hinged so they could be moved.

Les -- is the Canadian windshield slanted more than the USA 1923-25 slant windshield?

In the photograph, it looks like it is slanted further back than what I remember a USA 1923 would be slanted back. Or it might be an optical illusion? But my initial thought was it had been slanted back more than the original stock position.

It is so much easier when you can walk around the car and see it from several angles.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 10:13 pm:

I think the picture is somewhat distorted because the radiator and the headlights look like they a leaning back too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, January 18, 2016 - 10:37 pm:

I don't think the picture is distorted because that kid on the running board is standing straight up. The headlights are bashed in (lenses gone) and the rad likely is too. The slant on Canadian T windshields is about the same as American ones. None ever looked like this car. I think the owner has unbolted the windshield mounts and drilled one new hole on each side and then raked the windshield back to make the car look racy like some expensive car he'd seen. Here is a photo from the Canadian '21 Touring I saw on Saturday. Compare the windshield mounts and bolt positions to the old photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 08:37 am:

It appears to possibly be a photo of a photo. If you look at the left side of the picture you can see that the white area gets wider and wider as you go from the bottom to the top of the photo. The bottom ¼ has been cropped so it does not show that. And the other three sides have been cropped so they do not show the original border of the original photograph either. But that could also be caused if the photo was crooked in the scanner and they cropped it that way. “IF” it is a photo of a photo then that could cause some distortion.



In case it is a photo of a photo does anyone have access to and know how to use a program that would take the stretch from the off set camera angle? I do not have access or if I do I don't know that I have access so I don't know how to correct it either. Below is an illustration I took from http://www.projectorpeople.com/resources/keystone-correction.asp that discusses the distortion of projecting powerpoint etc. on the wall and the projector is not square with the wall. I think taking the photo of a photo from an angle could cause similar distortion. That is called keystone when projecting an image on a wall.



But for whatever reason – whether the photo is distorted, the windshield was modified and tilted back [bent or bracket tilted by adding new holes], I just haven’t seen enough Canadian windshield to know it is ok, or some combination of those, the windshield looks tilted back more than I would normally expect.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 09:48 am:

Dennis could be right though. Here is a distorted photo I once posted here. I know it's distorted because I distorted it. It is a photo of a photo and I didn't hold it properly. One thing is certain though, Canadian windshields were never slanted anywhere near as much as it that photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 05:19 pm:

I think the windscreen is the right angle now
fix


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 06:11 pm:

Peter,

I agree with that is what I would think is about normal for the slant of the windshield.

I also tried doing that with very similar results shown below:



I used a "skew" feature in Microsoft Office Paint. Note that while the slant in the windshield now appears correct, the radiator is leaning forward, the wheels need some alignment etc.

I believe if we can get a "keystone" correction -- that will have the car looking correct and will show if the windshield was actually slanted more than normal or not.

Again, if someone has a program that does that and knows how to do it -- that would be great. If not, I may try to get my wife to project it on a smart board at her school. We could adjust the "keystone" on the projector (from memory -- there is button on the remote that does that) and then take a picture of it. But that might or might not help.

Notice also that the car appears to have both the earlier style front spring mounting U-bolts as well as the later style front spring to frame to engine mount. (Part #3075C Crankcase Front bearing and spring clip assy.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Ps -- my first attempt didn't work at all:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

Using the Skew function in Photoshop, a photo can be straightened out easily.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 07:00 pm:

Straightened by approx 2.8° ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 09:07 pm:

I would say definitely a Canadian car, both because of the features others have posted, and I notice the standard Canadian front license plate bracket. I has, apparently seen some "tough" times though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 06:09 am:

Garnet,

Thanks. I believe that the majority of the T looks normal with that approximate 2.8 skew correction you did.

And if that is representative of how the car really looks, I believe the windshield has been modified and has more of a slant than standard. But I've been fooled by optical illusions before. So I don't rule that out for me either.

If I have time this weekend, I may still try to do the Keystone adjustment at my wife's school to see if it makes any significant difference or not.

David -- good catch on the Canadian license plate holder. There is a discussion of that part that was used in Canada but not in the USA near the middle to bottom of the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/444861.html?1400034344 (Note the first photo is NOT of the correct bracket -- the correct bracket is further down.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 04:02 pm:

Hap, Also a good catch on the front spring/engine mount. I know I have seen (but never bought) several such brackets at swap meets over the years. Those have been discussed on a couple threads in years past on this site. Someone (I think it may have been Dan T?) posted an ad for them one time.
I only speculate about the reason? Maybe some people thought the new style spring clamp wasn't robust enough, and decided to offer a bracket to simply fit under the new clamp and utilize the earlier style U-bolts to create a stronger connection between the frame and front axle? Doing so would be much easier than changing the entire mount under the engine (if you have ever done so on a fully assembled car, you KNOW what I mean!). Or maybe it was just any silly reason to scare a new car buyer into buying something else?
Regardless. It IS a wonderful photo with many good data points for the Canadian Ts! And I am convinced the the windshield was modified, probably deliberately.
Thanks all!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Sunday, January 24, 2016 - 05:35 am:

The canadian model T definitely had slanted windsheild posts not only that but they are cast in one piece I need a pair


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Sunday, January 24, 2016 - 05:49 am:

There seems to be a bit of "over thinking" going on here look at the pic Dave Wells submitted though these posts don't lean back as far it is fairly obvious they slant back if you look closely you will see that these posts are also cast as one piece. These are the canadian slant posts as far as I know used 1920-1 to '23 but definitely factory parts and not modified....the most likely scenario is the wood has disintegrated and allowed the upper cowl to crush down and lean back.....i'm surprised that no one was interested in a story that starts out "I found this car buried under a tree in my yard...." any other info on this car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Sunday, January 24, 2016 - 03:36 pm:

ok now that the windsheild mystery is solved I'm from BC and would definitely like to learn more about the story Dane where did you find it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 03:56 am:

Rik, The photo appeared on a British Old Car Forum. I contacted the poster who agreed to let me put the photo on here.

The information given at the time, is what I used as the caption for the photo- ""old photo of the original owner of our property, Bob Grant and his mom and sisters
I found this Model T buried with a huge tree growing through it .
cheers
Hank"". Hank has said that he will try to get photos of what remains of the car, and any other information that he can once Winter is over. As I understand it, the car is still where he found it.
Dane.


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