Installation of felt seal front 26/27 engine.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Installation of felt seal front 26/27 engine.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:06 pm:

Let's just assume that I've already made the decision to go with a felt seal on the camshaft at the front of my 26/27 engine.
I've got the lower part of the block removed and the old seal taken out. I haven't removed the timing cover yet, but will do so shortley.

Do I paint everything and then install the felt seal and bolt the timing cover and lower engine block parts together as I do so?

Or, do I reassemble everything except for the felt seal and then cram it into it's holding slots?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:24 pm:

Robert, you have me confused. There is no lower part of the block, unless you are referring to the pan.

A 26-7 timing cover does not have a slot for the felt seal. It is an open land, into which most fit a modern seal.

Are you referring to the crankshaft seal by any chance?

Perhaps I can help if I get my head around your problem.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:33 pm:

And if you're referring to the crankshaft seal, why would you not use the rope?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:39 pm:

I think you mean "crankshaft" felt seal instead of "camshaft"?

If you do mean crankshaft seal,
- you pack the lower half into the groove in the pan, (not lower engine block).
- Then set the block on the pan, with the timing cover still removed.
- Pack the upper half of the seal in the timing cover groove.
- Bolt the timing cover on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:41 pm:

Steve,

Do you mean the white rope that the suppliers include with an engine gasket kit that is 100% impossible to smash into the grooves?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:42 pm:

Still learning the terminology. When I started taking my engne apart for cleaning/painting, I removed approx. 16 bolts and castle nuts and cotter pins and a large piece came off the bottom of the block. Lower hogshead pan and a longer pan from around the block with the cup and starter crank tube in the front of it.
Pan?
At the front of this piece was the half of the original or replacment felt seal or rope, it was like concrete whatever it was and I need to replace it. It's the large shaft in the center of the engine, not the smaller timing shaft which must be the camshaft.?
So the larger center shaft is the crankshaft?
I'm feeling a felt or rerope gasket around the timing shaft and cover now that I go look for it. The front cover doesn't seem to affect the upper portion of the crankshaft.

So now that I've confused everyone. I presume I need to replace the seal at the large center crankshaft and only the bottom half is exposed by removing the pan. How do I replace this seal?

Is there another seal at the camshaft?

Shen I look at the gasket set from langs, only a felt seal is included, not two.

Confused. Thanks for a possible roadmap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 03:50 pm:

OK, Lang's sels a modern seal for inside the timeing cover for the camshaft, so I must be looking for how to replace the seal at the CRANKSHAFT. With or without the pan removed.

How do I get to the upper part of the CRANKSHAFT?

I reallly don't want to start messing of the shfats and babbits and all that. Just trying to replace what makes sense while I got the engine this far disassembled. (further than I originally intended.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 04:08 pm:

For the crankshaft seal, I use the "rope" which is a Model A seal. It is too long for the Model T, so I just cut it off about 1/16" above the edge of the crankcase and of the timing cover. It takes a bit of work to get it into the groove and I like to hammer it a bit with the ball of a ball peen hammer to get it down into the groove. It will seal better and last longer than the felt. You can also use the felt if you wish.

For installation of the timing gear cover, you should get the tool which fits into the timer groove in the timing cover and center it on the camshaft while you are bolting it in place. This will properly align the timer or distributor with the camshaft.

For a camshaft seal, I use the modern neoprene seal. You can use a felt, but it has a tendency to leak oil and will get your contacts dirty sooner.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 04:15 pm:

First let's deal with the crankshaft. Most gasket kits contain two methods of providing a seal, a length of rope and two half round bits of felt. The rope is hard (IMHO) to install. The bits of felt are installed in the front cover and in the pan, the pressed steel cover under the block.
The second seal is on the camshaft. Most (not early engines) have a space behind the brass timer shield. The gasket kit has a felt seal which is easy to install.
I would recommend you not paint where the seal sits.
I personally use modern seals in both locations, the crank seal can lead to complications.......

(Message edited by Tony_bowker on January 19, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 04:49 pm:

I have to confess that my upper rope went in before the crankshaft. I installed a rope seal with the crankshaft in place in a Packard once, and didn't think it was terribly difficult, but I haven't tried it in a T yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 10:00 pm:

Robert

Trusty Ford Service manual copy is handy to have in the garage when doing repair work or assembly...helps with descriptions of the parts and how they go together.

For the crankshaft seals, you place 1/2 in the slot of the lower edge of the timer cover.

The other 1/2 goes into the front of the crankcase (pan).


Crankcase pan, rope type seal going in, helpful to seat with a ball hammer, or better, use a socket placed sideways and its cylinder shape will force the seal down evenly. Then the crankcase can be replaced. Oil both halves the rope seal after install so it has oil saturated for the crankshaft to spin on it from the get go.


The other 1/2 of that rope seal goes into the lower edge of the timer cover.

As for the camshaft seal, that is in the face of the timer cover. But when you re-installed the timer cover, use the alum tool to 'center' the cover on the camshaft, very important thing to do..otherwise the timer case won't be concentric with cam, can cause timer wobble.



As for the camshaft seal, the felt can be used, but the brass cover should be over the felt as the felt can be caught up in the rotating timer rotor. Best to use the modern seal over the camshaft, it fits in the face of the timer cover after you correctly fit the timer cover back on the front of the engine block.


modern seal in green color in recess.


old fashion original felt seal and brass cover


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 11:27 pm:

All good advice re the rope seals Robert. Rather than hammer them with a ball pien hammer, a use a socket of the approx size of the crankshaft, held on the end of a 6" extension. Lay the socket in the seal and gently tap it down into the groove. The socket will form the seal to the correct shape.
I too, leave approx 1/16 to 1/8" of the rope seal above the mating surface. That way there will be some crush when the bolts are tightened.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 10:50 am:

Robert,

Maybe this helps...

Pan:


Hogshead:


Crankshaft:


Camshaft:


Crankshaft Seals:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 03:18 pm:

I was taught to oil the rope before installing, aids in installing too, as it becomes very slippery! I usually have a little pan of warm oil I set them in for a while (15 minutes or so--usually I'm busy doing other prep work while they are "soaking"--just like "Madge" does to your fingers with Palmolive before doing your nails! (OK, Old TV ad!). :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 09:39 pm:

This is all fantastic stuff. I sincerely appreciate all the hand holding. Someday I'll have to tell you all why I need it, but not right now.

Last newbie question and then I'll let you go. With replacing both these seals and all the necessary gaskets I.E. pan, timing cover, head, etc., what should my reassembly order be...

pan to block and then timing cover?
Or timing cover to front of block and then lower pan?

I'm thinking pan and then timing cover to help with the placement of the rope seals on the top of the crankshaft.

But if that's not the case, I'm trainable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 - 11:48 pm:

Robert, I always fit the timing cover first. The rope seal is fat. Getting the cover to seat , with an aligning tool in place , makes the task somewhat troublesome at times. The pan goes on last.

I cut a half circle out of the end of the pan gaskets so they go around the proud pieces of the rope seal. That way the rope ends get to press on one another to make a tight seal.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 06:47 am:

Pan is definately what I was calling the lower block. Hard to imagine it as a pan with no top or bottom, but it is what it is.

And this added to my confusion . . .
In Walter T. Fishleigh's files in Accession 94 at the Ford Archives there is a memo dated July 26, 1926 entitled: “Finish For Model T Motors”. It lists the finish to be put on each of the exposed parts of the motor.

Black Pyroxlylin used on:
1. Transmission Cover
2. Starter Motor
3. Generator
4. Crankcase
5. Commutator

Black Graphite Paint used on:
1. Exhaust Manifold and Carburetor

Black Enamel used on:
1. Breather Cap
2. Commutator Retainer Spring
3. Manifold Clamps

Nickel Plate used on:
1. Cylinder Head Cap Screws
2. Spark Plug caps and Thumb Nuts
3. Spark Plug Wire Terminals
4. Coil Box Terminal Bolts and Nuts
5. Water Connection Cap Screws
6. Manifold Cap Screws
7. Cylinder Valve Cover Bolts

Moleskin Pyroxylin used on:
1. Cylinder Block
2. Cylinder Head
3. Generator Bracket
4. Front Cover
5. Air Intake and Manifold

Bright Zinc Plate used on:
1. Cutout Cover


Don't see the "pan" listed as a part. Perhaps the crankcase is the pan. Which leads me to another question...

As my engine is a 26/27 and I want to paint the block moleskin "green", it looks like the block and timing cover are moleskin along with the generator bracket and, I presume the starter bracket, but is the pan/crankcase black or green as well? If the pan is indeed the crankcase, then it looks like black.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 08:07 am:

Robert,

Look again at the list of engine parts painted with black pyroxylin. The Ford engineers referred to what we call the "pan" as the "crankcase", and it was painted black.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 12:10 pm:

I was guessing that was the case, but I presented the list as support for my becoming confused as to what to call that part. Pan or crankcase. Not see the pan on the paint list guided me towards it being called the crankcase.

So "black" it is. Reading alot of threads on engine color green vs. black, and after it is al said and done, there is very little showing that will be moleskin.

I think this thread is wrapping up.

Thanks to the team for superior hand holding. Waiting for Lang's order to arrive and then weekend will be spent on installing seals and gaskets. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 01:05 pm:

Robert

Good.. now you are on track.

One thing is the more you play with cars and Model T's in particular, is that terms or names of parts are often multiple and can be interchanged.

That 'pan' name is short for 'oil pan', the part most engines have that fits to the lower block and holds the oil for the oil pump that supplies the engine. That part can also be called the 'sump' as it down on the bottom.


typical engine

The Model T is a bit different as the 'oil pan' is much longer and one-piece, since it holds the oil for both the engine and the transmission. The Ford name is crankcase, but you have to remember its more, as it covers the crankshaft, but also the flywheel, magneto, and transmission.



By its early design, it was a wonder of one-piece metal stamping. And did the whole function of holding the engine and transmission to the frame, unlike modern engines, where the oil pan is a simple housing that can be easily removed, and the same with the transmission, easily removed and the engine stays in the frame.

The T is earlier design, the engine or as Ford called it, the 'powerplant', has to be pulled from the frame to remove the crankcase and the transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 01:31 pm:

Robert, one other thing I would mention is that if you are using the felt seal for the cam shaft and the brass cover over that the repro cover is not the right size. The commutator is supposed to set over the brass cover but the new ones are a bit too small so the cover can slip forward. Check the size of yours or use the modern seal. I have found original covers at swap meets and use them but if you do not have the correct ones it might be best to go with the modern seal or use some gasket cement to keep the felt in place in the recess and not use the brass cover at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 04:53 pm:

I have ordered the modern seal for the camshaft. There is a felt seal that comes with the engine gasket set, but I don't know if it is the camshaft or crankshaft seal. So I'm planning on rope seal for the crankshaft and a modern seal for the camshaft.
I'll be installing a new Tiger timer at the same time, so I'll make sure everything fits well and plays well with others.

Hope to post pics after all is said and done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 05:17 pm:

Robert, Do yourself a favor if you don't want oil wicking thru the felt crank seal. Buy a modern seal to fit the crankshaft cut the lip and bend it flat like a daisy flower, turn it around backwards and glue in on to the front of the engine with some Ultra Black or the Right Stuff. you'll have no leaks...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 05:42 pm:

Robert, I would use the rope seal. It doesn't leak, it can be used with a slightly worn and pitted crank without an expensive sleeve unlike the modern seal and you can remove the timing gear cover and put it back on without removing the pan.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 05:45 pm:

Robert, sorry didn't see your last post.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 07:34 pm:

Dan's right, the "pan" was a wonder of early technology an metal stamping. When the "new" '14 T engines were made, Ford finally gave up on trying to stamping the pans & used originals (at least this is what I was told). The shape was just too complex!
Gee they did it back in the day. . . but of course, they were making a lot more than just a handful then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 10:27 pm:

Bob's in the past had some "rope" seals that were the correct cross section,


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