Is the "24" year that it was cast?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Is the "24" year that it was cast?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 07:20 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 07:37 pm:

Robert,

No, the 24 that is visible is NOT the year. It is a mold number so the company could track the mold. If blocks with 24 all had a similar problem -- that mold would be pulled and reworked as needed.

From your photograph it appears you have a 1924-25 car or a 1924-1927 Ton Truck. For all of those years the USA engine blocks did not have a casting date. The Canadian blocks continued casting dates all the way to 1927.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

(Message edited by Hap_tucker on January 21, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

Hap, thanks for the info...
Learn something new everyday.
It is a 22, can you tell me what you see that makes you say it is a 24-27 engine.
Thanks in advance...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 07:53 pm:

Sorry, it is a 22 Touring... Body has oval tank, dropped seats. Windshield is not slanted...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 08:17 pm:

Robert,

I looked for a link to the on-line encyclopedia for a reference to give you that the USA blocks stopped having a casting date approximately Dec 1921 to very early calendar year 1922. But there is a thread that discusses that at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31484.html . And the last USA casting date that I know of so far is: Feb 22, 1922 see the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/292831.html

If the block was replaced in a car or truck, the Ford dealers had been instructed to stamp the original car or truck’s serial number onto the new block and many garages followed that same procedure. In the case of a replacement block usually the engine block would have been produced later than the serial number indicated (although it is possible for an earlier casting replacement block to have been used – but in general they tend to be later than the original block they replace). In my very small sample size of 6 blocks in the garage two of those appear to have been replacement blocks as the casting date is later than the serial number. So in addition to the casting date and serial number you can use changes in the block to also approximate the date range of a block or engine. See the list of Cylinder block changes along with the dates – (the dates shown are normally for the drawing change and not necessarily the implementation change) at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng2 under engine block changes. Note it also shows another example of overlap – where it says for 10-18-1921 “New design (one valve cover) to be run at a rate of 100 per day.” Note this probably refers to the engine castings. Why? Because in the Engine Log Book (see page 526 of Bruce's book "Model T Ford") it records the first one piece valve cover engines were produced on Nov 1, 1921. They assembled (not cast) 1032 of the new style engines that day. And they continued to produce both style engines until Apr 3, 1922 for approximately 5 months of overlap.

So if you had a two valve cover block you would know it was produced by 3 Apr 1922 if assembled at the main engine assembly location -- or a little later if assembled at one of the branches.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 11:28 pm:

Isn't that dog-leg hood shelf an indicator of the high hood cars from late 23-25?

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, January 21, 2016 - 11:47 pm:

Your top saddle irons come out the side of the body?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 12:18 am:

Keith, yep, along with the dimpled hood hook areas. Definately not a '22. Looks to be '24 or '25 from here. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 12:42 am:

Kieth T, That, and several other details, indicate that it appears to be a high radiator car which would be limited to a 1924 or '25 (and arguably a very late '23). All high radiator open Ts had slant windshields originally. Not all slant windshields were on high radiator cars. But the earlier straight windshield bolts easily directly onto the later open car cowl, and I have seen a fair number of such cars over the years myself. Sometimes the top does not fit correctly, but even that is easy to fix by any good upholstery and top shop (and a lot of hobbyists).
I don't wish to offend anyone, and certainly not Robert Blanchard. But I would like to see more pictures of his car.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 01:02 am:

Okay guys here are some more pictures of the T I am about to buy (money has not exchanged hands yet)
Vin # places the engine in June 1922 which makes it a 1923 model year but as you all have point out it looks like a 1924-25 model year. here are more pics.
Please let me know what you think... it is a very nice T and basically needs nothing... I asked of a clear shot of the engine numbers... he will be sending it out to me tomorrow.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 04:03 am:

Get ready for it! While the car overall looks like one ready to have a lot of fun with, use, drive, enjoy, and nice enough to park next to almost any antique car at almost any show and proudly proclaim "Its mine!" ------? There are enough things that are not right and will invite many less than desirable comments. Most of it appears to not be all that serious (but hopefully your purchase price represents these flaws with enough money left in your pockets to correct some of them.

Basically, it is a 1924 model T touring car. Regardless of serial numbers on the block, engines often got changed over the years. Many small shops were selling "rebuilt" engines on an exchange basis. They rarely ever cared what year your car was, any engine was fair game. States varied a lot in the quality of their record keeping, IF they kept records at all.
The entire top assembly and the windshield appear to be totally wrong for a '24. The top and windshield are basically for a 1919 through '22 T touring. The pictures are not really clear, the windshield may not be correct even there. The top is a 'two-man" type with the extra sockets and bows mounting by the front seat. 1923/'25 one-man tops did not mount that way by the front seat.
But fenders, hood, radiator, cowl, firewall, and a dozen little details indicate 1924, or maybe early '25. All of these things were different in '23 and earlier. Details against '25 include door hinges, minor changes in the front fenders, and most '25s got the new 21 inch balloon tires and wheels that were not available in '24. While the 30X3.5 clincher wheels and tires were still offered in 1925, photographic evidence indicates that few cars continued to get them. And Of course, to confuse things further, all of these things could have been changed at any time.
The oil side-lamps appear to be add-ons, whether recent or back in the day. Nothing really wrong with that.
The car looks like a nice older restoration. If it is mechanically good, it could be a really great model T! And you could fix that top and windshield later.
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 10:38 am:

Wayne pretty much nailed it.

Robert-
look at the ratchet for the parking brake. If it is held on with 2 rivets on each end, it would be 1924. If it is held of with one rivet on each end it is 1925.

Also look at the hinges on the back door. If they bottom part of the hinge sticks out more from the body than the top, it is 1924. If they are equal distances out from the body, they are 1925.

Look at the cover on the steering gear. If the knurl is narrow, it would be the cover for the 3:1 steering gear ratio, used with 30x3-1/3 wheels. If the knurl is wide, it would be the cover used on the 4:1 ration, which was used on cars with 21: balloon tires.

Google some of these differences.

It is a nice looking car, but does have a mix of parts. For either 1924 or 1925, the car would have the one-man top and slanted windshield which would mean different mounting points for the irons, which mean upholstery work, too.

The 1924 or 1925 with dashboard, electric start and generator would not have been supplied with the kerosene side lights. Someone added those, too.

Oh, and of course the engine would have to be swapped out, a new title, etc.

I would take into consideration those things that would need to be "fixed" (no offense intended) while negotiating a price.

Is there someone knowledgeable who can go with you to see the car in person before money exchanges hands?

Again, from this end of the country, it "looks" like a nice car. Most people will never know the differences. Note the differences will not affect the safety of the car. If it runs great, and the price is a bargain, some people would not walk away from it. However, you need to be able to make an informed decision.

Keep us informed.

Oh, and Wayne, on behalf of the handful of Keith posters here on the forum: We like to break the rules. Specifically, the "ie rule." The only way a friend of mine in college could remember how to spell my name was to recite, "Old MacDonald had a farm, EI-EI-O." To this day he calls me, "EI."

: ^ )

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 11:52 am:

Hap, Wayne and Keith (EI) ;-) and others,

Thank you all for your input. Alas I have stepped away from this T... I have been looking for a long time now and I guess I got ahead of myself and didn't do my homework... Must have been the windshield and the top that threw me off the scent.
The owner was really nice and understandable... its comforting to know there are still folks out there that understand ones needs and accept when I made a mistake of jumping the gun.
But I wanted original... and everything to match especially the engine to the year.... (although I know some engines could be same year but not the one that came with the original car when it left the factory... but I am sure that'll be hard to prove!)
So close.. but yet so far... it is a good thing I am patient!

From now on I am:

A. Going to use the T bible to double check everything more diligently.

B. Once I have checked and made sure I am right I will post here so I can be corrected by the experts! :-)

Okay, onward and upward... the search continuous... (been at it on and off for around 12 years now)
Just incase any of you hear some scuttlebutt: I am looking for 17-20... but a 15 or 16 is not out of the question...

For those up north stay warm and safe (whiskey helps)!

Robert


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 06:42 pm:

Keith Townsend, In your post just above, didn't you mean 4 to 1 and 5 to 1 steering ratios?

Keith (the other Keith :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 07:20 pm:

Bad fingers, BAD fingers! Thank you kEIth for kindly pointing out my faux pas. I do make an effort to spell things correctly (just me and my OCD, I don't care if others misspell). Especially other people's names, I dislike misspelling them. That sort of thing wieghs heavily on my mind. ;)

Robert B, Rats! It looks like a nice enough car!? But if what you want is an earlier style '17 to '20ish touring, unfortunately, that isn't it.
Before 1920 (and after 1912), all (USA) model T touring bodies had the five-panel rear tub, with two seams/beads on each of the rear corners. Unfortunately, as this car demonstrates quite well, a lot of restorations back in the '50s and '60s (and even later) were not done with correctness in mind. When I was getting started in this madness, a lot less was really known about what was done when. I remember a lot of restorations being done with parts that were way wrong, and people had no clue. I clearly remember looking at a few brass era Ts that were "restored" using '24/'25 touring bodies. I often wonder where those cars are now? And do the people know what they actually have now?

Of course, there is a flip-side to all that. Somewhere, somebody has a nice "spring '15" model T with a replacement (probably later) body. The original body sat for decades, went though several owners, before a wonderful friend made a great offer to me. Now my "put together" "mostly '15" runabout has a genuine spring '15 runabout body restored and getting many other real '15 parts being put on it.

Robert B, Good luck finding what you want!! And don't take too long.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, January 22, 2016 - 09:07 pm:

Last October I had a few hours to spare at the BFRC, so I tracked down when the change from the 5-piece back to the 3-piece back was made on touring car bodies. It turns out that the 3-piece back was adopted during the late summer of 1920, and was intended for the 1921 model year cars.

However, Ford was not only building its touring car bodies, but also buying them from outside suppliers. Ford officially notified the outside suppliers of the change from the 5- piece to the 3-piece design touring car backs in October 1920, and reaffirmed that the 3-piece back design was for the 1921 model year.

Given the 3 month time lag between when Ford went to the 3-piece back design and when Ford notified the outside body makers of the change, I suspect that there was some overlap in the production of 5-piece and 3-piece back touring cars.

I would not be surprised if there were two Model T touring cars (or more) in existence today with motors built on the same day in the second half of 1920, one with a 5-piece back, and the other with a 3-piece back. If someone were to ask which of them was correct, the answer would have to be "they both are!"

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 01:54 am:

Thank you Trent B!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 04:58 pm:

Trent and others -- thank you for sharing the information, photos, puzzle pieces and questions you find.

I like the saying, "None of us is as smart as all of us."

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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