Timer problems

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Timer problems
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Henry - Werribee, Australia on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 05:59 am:

My nephew had the timer off recently to give it a clean out and ever since the car isn't running right.

Have checked the timing and that looks ok, so tonight I took the timer back off to have a look. Seems like a lot of rubbish in there for only 200km since it was cleaned out? The brush also seems to be worn on an angle.





Before we cleaned it out, there was an occasional missfire. Now it is down on power, it doesn't missfire badly but at higher rpm acceleration feels rough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Barrett - Anderson, IN on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 06:27 am:

It appears from the picture and description that the brush is being shaved by the cover. The surface the brush rides on must be perfectly smooth.

I recommend a TW timer replacement and a new modern seal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 06:53 am:

And the brush doesn't fit very well, maybe you can make a new slightly larger brush from some type of generator brush so it doesn't tilt when rotating?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 07:51 am:

Dave, the copper contacts appear to be well above the insulation/timer cover material,indicating severe wear. Does the time have the letter S moulded into it near the arm. These are later reproductions and they did not give good service. One problem was the spring behind the brush was way too strong, exerting too much pressure and leading to this premature wear.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Henry - Werribee, Australia on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 08:10 am:

Thanks for the replies, I'll remove it tomorrow and have a closer look. I do have a spare TW timer I can use instead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 08:53 am:

Steve Jelf resurfaced a worn New Day timer in this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/594122.html?1450025270


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 08:57 am:

Amen Rod, Amen!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 09:01 am:

The timer shown in the original post is one of the versions of reproduction made by Snyders over the years. To my knowledge none of their versions lasts very long. Snyders has made them in black and grey plastic. Neither works very well for long.

The original New Day timers are a dark brown color and work very well. They look like this:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 09:16 am:

I have over seven thousand miles on one of the "S" model repops with NO problems, all in the brush. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 09:19 am:

Likely several causes of excess wear.

As stated the typical New Day reproduction timer of later years made of a type of plastic that isn't the best for long wear.

And that one seems to be off-center wear, indicating the front plate may not be concentric with the camshaft, that puts the centerline of the rotor off in relation to the timer case, that can cause rapid wear.

And maybe worn camshaft bushings, that allow the cam to whip a bit, but normally the New Day with its face forward rotor brush is less likely to be affected by wobble of the camshaft.

Below is the newer repro New Day, the material is a composite looking dark gray charcoal color, and the wear properties are poorer than the earlier repro or the originals in Bakelite.



Has an 'S' mark below the timer rod hole.

Typical older type, reddish brown color, lasts longer, rotor is all brass.



Thankfully, just announced by Tip Top Timers will be the latest repro, made of Bakelite and should run good and long.


It has 'Pat'n' just below the timer rod hole like the originals so you know what you got :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kurt Baltrusch on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 09:25 am:

It's hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like the brush holder itself is dragging on the timer. It looks worn around the front edges. I am not sure how or if this could happen (an extra spacer or washer behind the brush holder?). Anyway, looks like it's time for the TW.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 09:37 am:

Dave

Just re-looked at your photo in first post, what is that large washer above the rotor?

Seems much larger than the thin cupped washer to be used. Maybe its correct but seems big.

That may be rubbing the center recess of the New Day and causing a lot of rubble, that the rotor then rubs on the face contacts...contributing to the early destruction.

Should only be the timer nut, thin small cup washer, and short pin in the hole of the camshaft.


Std. Ford roller rotor, but showing the typical thin small cup washer, nut and pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 09:52 am:

Even though you may have one of the repop New Days it looks like it could be saved to run a while longer.
I would buy a new brush, a new seal and do away with the older style cover. Also use the correct style washer.
Resurface the timer as shown in Steve Jeffs thread and you should be good to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 11:11 am:

I don's see any sign that the brush is rubbing on the shield behind it. I don't think that is the problem. Your case just looks very worn out, the contacts being higher then the lands between. Every time the brush hits a contact it catches on the edge and bends it back a little. The contacts in the case are the same thickness as the extension where you mount the wire so they can only take so much clean up before they just get too thin. Looks like the cam is moving out causing the brush to rub on the inside of the case. You may need to pull the generator and it's mounting bracket to see if the front cam bearing retaining bolt is loose or just pull the cam shaft see how much the cam moves in and out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 11:30 am:

I had a similar experience with a new day. Replaced with Anderson and no problems since. On my first T I have a red bakelite New Day which was on it when I got the car. Still there no problem. Your timer has a problem probably caused by a poor brush. It should not wear on an angle. If it is too loose in the holder, it would cause pressure on one edge causing the angle wear and also the cutting of the timer body.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 11:52 am:

Still believe the issue began with that cam nut and fat washer allowing the end of the cam to wear into the recess of the New Day.

Here is the inside of a new repro New Day, note the taper sides of the hole.



Compare the two, the one on the car is well worn and boring into the recess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 01:02 pm:

If you are talking about the shield behind the brush, what ever thickness it is would move the timer the equal distance out from the cover. If you are talking about the cup and nut that holds the brush on I do not see any indication of wear or rubbing to indicate it is the problem. I still think the cam is moving out too far and the bush holder arm is rubbing on the timer not the nut and cup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, January 23, 2016 - 03:06 pm:

If anyone in Australia requires a TW timer, I now have them in stock, email me through PM or
03 51992301.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Henry - Werribee, Australia on Sunday, January 24, 2016 - 02:43 am:

Took the timer off today. It's marked as a Best Timer and I remembered I'd seen one before and can remember Dad changing it a while back. The current timer is worn worse than the old one. The washer was homemade, I swapped that out for a repro one I had.




New timer is on and the car is back to full power.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Barrett - Anderson, IN on Sunday, January 24, 2016 - 07:24 am:

It looks like you put the TW Timer on the car. Good choice. It should last for years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, January 24, 2016 - 09:35 am:

So it turns out something is or was causing the brush moving to far into the case that initially was causing the problem. Not the New Day timer itself. Looks like it was causing the problem in both new days.


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