**1917-1918 Exhaust System-Muffler Assembly**

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: **1917-1918 Exhaust System-Muffler Assembly**
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 04:17 am:

Had to do a bit of revision here, to include the fold over outer shell, the wrap and the bands (I'm only showing one however). The bolt 4030 is actually quite long and there was no easy way to show it without breaking it and shortening...but if I put the bolt ends at opposite ends of the muffler it was even harder to follow as to what each end was. I suppose I could've just labeled each end with the same part number, but things are a might tight as is. However if you guys think that's the way it should be, then I'll figure something out.

Had to break the wrap, mainly because the shells are broken as well and the full length wrap wouldn't make much sense if I didn't, so to differentiate it from the other parts and to identify it as the same pieces, I textured it a bit...hope you get the idea. :-)



As always guys let me know if I've misinterpreted things or not. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 04:38 am:

Martin,

I think that the front muffler end is shown incorrectly. the mounting
slot should line up with the rear one. They both have to bolt to the chassis rail in alignment.

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 10:44 am:

1917 model year still has the tail pipe - same as 1916.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 10:45 am:

Also - no muffler wrap (asbestos).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 11:25 am:

You've got your mounting slot for the front muffler end on the wrong side!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 01:08 pm:

I would make the "break" edges a little more irregular, the cover piece looks too much like two separate pieces. Also the front casting, besides having the mount arm on the wrong side, the bolt retainer area is not like mine,Also note the bracket arm is pretty short, and the frame bolt "hole" is actually a slot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 03:30 pm:

I think here should be a plain washer on top of the two nuts holding the front and rear ends to the chassis. If there was not one, there should be on a 3/4 hole...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

David makes the same comments as I had in mind. The bolt retainer is a single bridge with an open area on each side to allow the gasses into the muffler. The irregular break is often used to illustrate that the parts are part of a larger whole.

Beautiful work Martin. I envy someone who can find their way around such drawing programmes.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 07:43 pm:

John, yeah that's makes sense, there would be no place to mount it otherwise. I just looked at the pictures again and I see where I made my mistake...ok I'll change that.

The catalog shows that the wrap was available through 1918, but that may have been for older cars, ok I'll lose the wrap.

The two pictures below are excerpts from the 1918 Ford Parts catalog. It shows that the cast iron muffler ends 1917-1918 had the slot style of exit rather than the pipe style exit on the cast iron ends. In Bruce's catalog book is also says that the rear muffler head 4040B was cast iron with no tail pipe.





David, I didn't have a view of the other side of the front, so I just took a guess as to what the arrangement looked like...now that I see your picture again I see that what I took for a closed in area is actually the pipe...ok I'll change that and the mount as well.

Tony, hmmm, you may be right on that...I'll check the parts catalog again and see...it's very sketchy as to the parts for mounting the muffler.

Allen, yes I now see that it is a bridge.



Probably should've included "Cast Iron Muffler Ends" in the title too I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, January 25, 2016 - 10:03 pm:

Very cool Martin! I think the cast iron with tailpipe end has a different shaped bracket, but mine is literally buried under too much HEAVY stuff for me to dig out right now. As I recall, mine is missing the tail pipe piece (shouldn't be hard to find a modern pipe to fit. . . (he says, naively)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 01:20 am:

David, when you do find one of those elusive "round to it's" and dig your very buried cast iron end piece with or without a tail pipe, please send me a picture of it so I can make a drawing with it too. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 01:30 am:

David, an after thought, are you sure that the very buried cast iron muffler end piece isn't a 1915 or 1916 end piece? As far as I have been able to find slot exit came into use in 1917 first in cast iron then stamped steel in 1919, but had a riveted bracket and much later in 1926 the one piece stamped steel front and end plates. But as far as I can fathom (so far, although I'm sure there was some overlap) 1915-1916 cast iron front and end plates with tail pipes and 1912-1914 had cast iron front and rear end plates with the slightly bent tail pipe. 1909, 1909-1910 and 1910-1911 are still sort of murky as to what and how things were...but I'm getting there. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 01:32 am:

Oh, damn I forgot...does anybody know if the inner shell 4029 has only the two holes or four smaller holes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 05:35 am:

Martin,
Yes, I forgot to mention the "buried" end piece IS a '15/16 end for my '16 touring. The front piece is also different, as there is no center bolt, but three bolts on the outside. When I get a chance, I'll dig them out. I do recall that mine are a bit bent though. I posted a photo of my early stamped metal end plate with three rivets instead of the usual two. Here it is again.


Note that the stamped version has a hole, not a slot, as the one bolt locates the muffler, not two bolts as in the previous design. Fewer parts, less assembly work!
It has been said that if a T came off the assembly line missing a bolt & it ran fine, the next day that bolt was no longer used!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 09:34 pm:

Martin,
After 45 minutes of moving 12 ~50lb wooden orchard crates (which wouldn't be bad, if they were in the open, but they're under a shelf) where I KNEW the '15-16 muffler ends were, I found nothing, but a little farther down on the shelf above, in a small lightweight box, were the muffler ends! I am starting a new thread and posting the photos there. I only put them there about 10 years ago, which is why I couldn't remember where they were!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:03 pm:

Daivd, isn't this end plate you've posted off a later car. It has the thick concave washer for the electric upset pipe that Larry is producing. This concave washer acts like a spring washer, which does two things, keeps tension on the plate as well as on the threads of the bolt shaft threads and nut...sort of like a lock washer would...but like everything else, usually the shaft is peened over the nut just to make sure it doesn't come undone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:45 pm:

Martin,
The above picture is of an early stamped end, with three rivets holding the frame bracket on, then the design was changed to two rivets, until the one-piece design was introduced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 12:03 am:

David, ok, 1918 or 1919? Or some overlap?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 03:37 am:

Martin,
Larry S. can answer this better than I, I would suspect that, or '17, whenever the stamped end mufflers first came around. Probably someone figured out that three rivets was an overkill!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 05:42 am:

Or too costly more like...save a penny or two philosophy that Ford had, would've spurred the reduction of rivets more than any stress test would've.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:02 am:

1917 - 18 had a round outlet on the cast iron rear half as shown.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 11:53 am:

To add to my earlier post and Royce's post:

Based on surviving examples with known histories, the tailpipe was used through the end of the 1917 model year:

Erik Johnson - May 1917 roadster
Royce Peterson - June 1917 roadster
"Rip Van Winkle" June 1917 touring
Robert Johnson (Erik's father) - July 1917 touring - note that July is the last month of the 1917 model year

I can't speak on behalf of Royce's car, but the other three do not have asbestos wrap. Also, although Royce's car has a Minnesota connection, it is not known if it was assembled in Minneapolis. The other three cars are original to Minnesota, not far from Minneapolis, so they most likely were assembled in Minneapolis.

Note in the 1918 parts catalog above, parts 4026 "muffler head - frontů..1909-17" and 4030 "rear muffler headů..1909-17."

I have a February 1, 1917 Price List of Parts. The muffler without the tailpipe or respective individual parts do not appear in that edition.

So, the 1918 Price List of Parts shows two different styles of muffler for 1917, but actual 1917 cars seem to show only the earlier style.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

No asbestos or tailpipe on mine Erik. Note that the rear cast iron piece has the round outlet at the bottom that looks like it would accept a tail pipe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 03:44 pm:

Below, this is what Bruce McCalley says about the 1917 model year. Frankly, I think he was confused.

"Similar to 1916, with and without tail pipe. No asbestos wrap, painted with F-140 paint. Shorter cast mounting brackets. Only one long retaining rod to hold the ends together."

Royce: I wonder if your tailpipe was removed the original owner by your dad?

I can see that your muffler has the three, long retainer bolts (I can see one in the photo).

My car, Rip Van Winkle and my dad's car, (May, June, July 1917, respectively) have the three long bolts and tail pipes. (I have a disc of photos of Rip Van Winkle from Kim Dobbins - you probably also have a copy.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:21 pm:

From the Enclyclopedia;
Not sure how acurate Bruce's information is. If it was taken from the record of changes at the Benson Ford Research Center, should be accurate.

Best Regards, John Page, Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:22 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:23 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:35 pm:

Martin,
I can see I was confused (not unusual for me!), yes, the three rivet stamped end I have would be early '19 production. So, if I have this right;
'15-16 Cast ends, with provision for tailpipe (Ford may have discontinued putting the pipe on in late '16) and three bolts holding ends together.
'17-18, Cast ends, single center bolt and oval exhaust 'hole'.
'19-27 Stamped ends, single end bolt fastening to exhaust pipe, variations on end piece (three rivets, two rivets, no rivets--one piece, no rivets with flap on exhaust outlet. Exhaust outlet moves from side to bottom somewhere in there!)
I THINK that's it!
Corrections welcomed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:39 pm:

There you go.

The single rod (bolt) muffler was experimental and limited production April 1917

Single rod muffler became regular production in September 1917, which is the second month of the 1918 model year.

Therefore, some 1917 models could have had the single rod muffler, but an overwhelming majority would have the three rod muffler. It's possible that early 1918 models also had the three rod muffler.

That would also explain why a 1918 parts book would show refer to two different styles of muffler caps for 1917.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 05:02 pm:

Erik,

This photo was taken by your dad in 1951 on the day they brought the car home from the original owner's house. In the original photo I can see the tailpipe in place. Not sure if you can see it in this photo. I bet Dad removed it when he installed the demountable rim carrier in order to have a spare for the Hayes wire wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 05:08 pm:

I was thinking the same thing - your dad removed the tailpipe when he went to wire wheels and had a spare tire carrier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:15 pm:

David, you're basically right on the 1919-1927 in that they were stamped steel. 1919 seems to have had both cast and stamped steel ends. The single hole from bracket to frame mount was in (I think) 1919-1920, in 1921 it went to the slot bracket to frame type, but still had the three rivet mounting bracket on a stamped steel end plate. In 1924 it changed to two rivet mounting bracket and in 1926 through the end of the production of the Model T they were one piece stamped steel front and end plates.

The only time this seems not to be the case is on the Canadian cars, their muffler had a riveted mounting bracket and also had a deflector that riveted on and their exhaust port which was on the bottom whereas the concurrent US version was pointing to the differential housing without a deflector. This changed in 26 and 27 when the exit had a stamped in deflector and pointed down in the 4 or 5 o'clock position.

This is what I've figured out so far, with the help of you guys...I'm sure I may have somethings wrong or there was some overlap between years and the changes that occurred, since things seemed to change from hour to hour and minute to minute in the production of these cars. All I can do is make a drawing for those differing cars with the title notated as to it's overlap and let whomever sees it decide for themselves as to what their car had or did not have.

John Regan warned me once, that he thought what I was doing would be impossible to ascribe any particular date to any given assembly due to the change facts we know of. He's right, but I've got to start someplace and I'll just make changes and or additions as we go along. I knew after my third drawing that this wasn't going to be a cut and dried or simple process. But I'm pretty sure that with the knowledge base here on this forum and in McCalley's books and elsewhere, we can make a pretty damn good stab at it. He also was afraid that my drawings would become judging standards, when that wasn't my intention at all for them. They're only as correct as the information I get from either you people here or what I glean from the sacred tomes of Model T'dom. The only purpose of these drawings is to attempt to pictorially document through illustration the assemblies that make up the Model T Ford. But since the car was an ever changing beast all through it's production run, you can't hold these drawing as absolutes as to what was or was not in any given car or any year...there are always exception and always will be.

Somebody said once, we're not antique car owners, we're antique car archaeologists, it sounds humorous, but it's also fairly accurate. We're always researching, and trying to understand the changes that took place in the construction of our cars. All I'm trying to do is draw as many of them and their individual peculiarities as I can for whatever year they're ascribed to. Who knows, maybe one day I'll actually put them in a book or on a disc or something. Every time I think I'm close to achieving a completed car...that mountain looms ever far off in the distance, whatever else you may think about my drawing or my reasons for drawing them, the only thing I'm really thinking of is for the good of the hobby. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 11:24 pm:

Martin, I don't have the words to describe the respect and admiration I have for you to take on these projects. I can't imagine the time and effort that goes into your drawings. You have a talent that I can't even begin to fathom. I hope you realize what your efforts are going to mean to the future owners/caretakers of our T's for many, many years to come. My hat is off to you sir!(and to everyone else that is helping Martin out!). Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 12:53 am:

"Model T Ford, the ultimate icon of mass production. Fifteen million cars all alike. No two cars alike."

I know that it is not actually correct, and I don't know if I can claim authorship of that statement or not, but I have said it a few times through the years.

Thank you Martin V for all these that you do. You have a marvelous talent, and I think your drawings will become mainstays of model T research for many years to come!
Thank you, and thank you David D and others that contribute with suggestions and details to refine the timelines.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 02:03 am:

Wayne, I'm just a little helper; it's folks like Martin who are the real heroes.
It's amazing how many folks here do stuff, just for the good of the hobby! We are forever indebted to them all!


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