**1915-1916 Exhaust System-Muffler Assembly** J

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: **1915-1916 Exhaust System-Muffler Assembly** J
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 09:44 pm:

Martin asked for some pictures of the earlier muffler, so here are pictures of the one I THINK is correct for my '16. I am missing the tail pipe & am not certain how it was held in. Also, the brackets have a curve to them so I believe they are bent. I believe I will have to heat them up to straighten them--any opinions on that?
Front & rear ends, outside:


Front & Rear Ends, inside:


Side view of ends:


Another side view, showing more of the rear end outside:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 10:16 pm:

David the tail pipe is inserted all the way to the land on the inside of the rear muffler piece and then it is peened over on one side. If you look inside there is a flat spot and the part opposite the flat is curved so you can work the pipe over to hold it in place. I made a couple of slits in the new pipe on that end to make it easier to peen over but the original one I removed was just bent over to keep it from pulling out. The brackets should not be bent in the way yours are. Someone may have done that to use the mounting holes on a different frame. Before I tried to bend them back I would install the shells and see how the brackets line up with the mounting holes in the frame and use that as a reference. Be careful when you bend them back because they break easily. I have a few of them that have broken brackets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 10:20 pm:

David, cast iron does not like to be bent. That said, both your muffler ends look to have bent mounts. I would not try to straighten them.

There are two ways to get around the bends. If you are making new shells, they could be made longer so the mounting holes end up at the same spacings.
Alternatively, if you already have the shells, this is one occasion where I would be prepared to drill one new hole in the frame to match the mounting holes. The new hole should be covered by the mounting bracket.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 10:28 pm:

David, this is exactly what I wanted, thanks...I agree that the bracket shouldn't be bent like that. Ford would've never done something that sloppily...he would've molded it with a step to place the mount back enough...one thing about Henry Ford, that I've noticed (from everything I've been doing)...he's was very symmetrically minded, he didn't like anything asymmetrical...ever. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 10:30 pm:

i think they are ductile iron if so heat to anel but dont bend while hot or they will brake for sure.charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 10:38 pm:

Another thing I don't see but expected to see...is the name Ford...Ford put his darn name on every frigging part of the T...where is on these plates? Or, where should've it been on these plates?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:27 pm:

Hmm, interesting--so, if Ductile Iron, anneal them, but don't bend while hot. If Cast Iron--live with it?
I would think cast iron might be too brittle for this application. Anyone really know?
Martin,
Ah, glad this is what you wanted! Wish I'd seen the box they were in on the top shelf before I spent all that time with those heavy wooden boxes filled with cast & forged T parts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 11:59 pm:

David, as to bending cast iron...I've had small success with small parts using heated foundry sand bending it very slowly and then reheating and repeating. Although there are some who would say that this would not be a good idea...but I was bending fresh CI not stale (old) CI.

There are some nice video's on straightening cast iron on "you tube" that pretty much walk you through the procedure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 03:35 am:

Hmm, no foundry sand here, but what if I set the end on a stable surface, well blocked, place a heavy weight on the mount arm, then heat the whole casting with a torch and let the weight move the arm when the metal relaxes enough??
Just an idea. Tomorrow, when I'm in town with access to high-speed, I'll look for those videos.
Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:18 am:

Martin, the "Ford" script on every part started in 1919, when Ford began to campaign against the makers of "spurious parts" as he branded them, outside aftermarket suppliers of spare parts for Fords.

So in 1915/16, very few parts would have any Ford marking - mostly the obvious like radiators, hubcaps and engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 09:47 am:

There is probably a part number somewhere. My '13 muffler ends have them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 09:47 am:

The unpainted white asbestos wrap was still being used in 1915. This photo is from April 1915, loading partly assembled cars on the rail line outside Highland Park plant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 09:56 am:

The asbestos wrap was used into the 1917 model year, though I'm not cwertain if it continued into calendar 1917?
Here's a photo showing newly arrived 1917's with asbestos wrapped mufflers - from this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/515127.html?1422948751

cc


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:10 am:

The Ford name in script became widespread on Model T parts on March 19, 1919. Prior to that it was relatively scarce, appearing on the radiator, block, head, hubcaps, coil box switch,running boards, etc. After March 19,1919 it goes on almost every part somewhere. A good way to determine if a pre-1919 Model T has its original parts is by looking for parts with the name Ford in script on them.

Prior to March 19, 1919, Ford was beginning to put its name on some parts, but it was putting the name on in block letters, not script. Two that quickly come to my mind is the transmission tail shaft and the inside of the crank ratchet. After March 19,1919, the name Ford was changed from block letters to script.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 03:58 pm:

Larry, Yes, there is a part number cast into them, but they are too faint to read. There is also what appears to be a raised "DB" (over the top of each other, like the Dodge Bros did)inside a circle. Would Ford still be using Dodge Bros. parts this late?? The part number on the outlet looks like 9107. . just too faint! The numbers are on the flange where the mounting brackets are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:28 pm:

Hmm, that '15 photo shows a lot of details, you can see the tailpipe on the muffler, and the mounting brackets show up too.
Oh, and thanks Val for explaining how the tail pipe is held on; simple, a real Ford solution!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:51 pm:

on our 16 body date tag 12-15 it is the same as Davids. I can see what looks like a B in a circle on the inlet casting. I cant find any other markings its asbestoes wrapped with 3 straps. the measurement of mounting bolts is 13 3/4 inch center to center. I cant post pictures right now. David I never tried to bend cast iron but I have had cast welded and what I was told is they cool it down slowly in oven so it doesint crack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 04:56 pm:

The part marked DB would have been used early in the 1914 model year as Ford started to make most of the things made by Dodge Brothers in house. This style muffler assembly was actually used 1914 - 1916.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:17 pm:

Paul,
Interesting, as my '16 was made Dec 10, 1915, so some left over DB marked muffler ends were still in use then!! COOL!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:21 pm:

Oh, boy, 1915 is going to be fun to draw. :-)

I've also noticed that the bolts that hold the two ends together are just that very long bolts, with a hex head at the rear and the nut on the front.



This picture was posted by someone last year I think, of a fairly fresh unrestored 1915 for sale. Note the bolt heads on the back of the muffler, there is also some asbestos hanging from under the last band on the rear also. I think, but am not sure but it looks like this muffler was also riveted, or are those "electric welded" (spot welds) pucker marks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 11:35 pm:

David D., there is a reference to the muffler ends in another thread that says they were malleable iron. I don't think you would have any problem straightening those brackets with some heat, just go slowly and keep them red hot till you get them to where they need to be. Then, let them cool slowly. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 02:03 am:

Wow, can we say "BIG backfire?" So the bolt head go to the rear--I would have done it the wrong way!
David, Wow, that's good news! I would suspect they aren't "normal" cast iron, as the muffler gets a lot of vibration and abuse at (I think) would have quickly broken cast iron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, January 28, 2016 - 12:05 pm:

Martin, make sure you reference the 15 muffler to be the same as '14.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 01:05 am:

I think that the 1914 to 1917 muffler assembly was very much the same, with minor detail changes. Attached are photos of a NOS rear head for 1914 and 1915. The factory number, # T-1201-C can be easily seen.
Also are some photos of a rusty muffler assembly without the baffle tubes and outer shell. This was removed from a 1917 chassis. On the rear head look at the "V-shaped" lugs that were added to the casting to keep the heads of the 3 long bolts from turning, so a second wrench was not needed to tighten them. Those lugs were added 12-21-15.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 04:07 am:

Ah, now that I know what to look for, my end has the same number on it; T 1201-C. It's very faint, but I'm certain that's what it is. the front piece number looks like T4206B.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 10:23 am:

Thanks Jim: You always post stuff of great benefit to the hobby! Now, if someone would just start making the long bolts, I think they are 13 3/8"-5/16 NF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 10:59 am:

The original tail pipes are rolled at the rear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 02:06 pm:

Royce, "rolled at the rear" -- I don't follow, do you have a picture, or drawing explaining this? the photos seem to just show a straight cut end on the pipe.
Larry, no one makes the bolts?? AUGH, more stuff to find!! (Obviously I don't have any bolts, just the (bent)ends!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 02:44 pm:

It's a rolled pipe with a split seam, i.e., the seam is not welded or crimped.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 04:46 pm:

If you look at Jim Rodell's photos above you can see the roll on the rear opening of the tube. It isn't just a cut off piece of tubing - the end is swaged into a rolled shape so it is round and blunt on the end, with no sharp edge.

The pipe is a seamed tube, as Erik says, but that is not what I meant.

I will try and get a batter photo of one that is here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 05:30 pm:

Larry, I fabricated the bolts for my 1912 muffler. Three lengths of rod, one end threaded just enough to put a nut on partially, and then welded through the rest of the nut. The other end was threaded as needed. If square ends are correct at the fixed end, a square nut could be used.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 06:07 pm:

Below is the tailpipe on the June 1917 "Rip Van Winkle" touring. The very end is rolled up as Royce indicated so there is a rounded edge instead of a sharp edge.

On my May '17 and my dad's June '17, the end of the tailpipe is not rolled - it's just cut off. Maybe rolling the end was a procedure that was eventually considered unnecessary and discontinued for a money/labor savings?

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 06:19 pm:

Maybe I should have typed "rolled inward" or "rolled toward the center" instead of "rolled up."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 09:05 pm:

Ok, it appears that from 1914 till early 1917 there is a tail pipe muffler, later in 1917 the exit changes altogether and a change from 3 long bolts to hold the ends together to one bolt down the center and runs this way until 1918. Not surprising really, considering how Ford did things...build em one way till you run out of parts, then use the new design from there on out.

Interesting about the pipe end though. Does this mean that the tail pipe 17 mufflers had the wrap? Probably so I suppose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, January 29, 2016 - 10:05 pm:

Martin -

The tailpipe was used until the end of the 1917 model year (August 1916 through July 1917).

The photo I posted above is the 1917 "Rip Van Winkle" touring which is a June 1917 car. That is the eleventh month of the 1917 model year.

My roadster - May 1917, and my father's 1917 touring (July 1917 - the last month of the 1917 model year) also have tailpipes. These are cars with known histories since new.

If you read your 1917-18 muffler thread, the single bolt muffler was "experimental manufacture" and in limited production starting in April 1917. Who knows how many were made and if any were actually installed on any 1917 Fords? It wasn't adopted for regular production until September 1917, the second month of the 1918 model year.

The muffler wrap was recorded as being obsolete December 18, 1916; this was the fifth month of the 1917 model year.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/607883.html?1453964622


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Saturday, January 30, 2016 - 12:04 am:

I tried to take close-up photos of the ends of the tailpipes without success, so I will describe how mine look.
If you ever cut copper tubing with a tubing cutter that has the little cutting wheel and a screw handle that you twist to advance the cutting wheel as you roll it around the tubing,---that is how the end of the tailpipes appear. They are smooth on the face and the end, but have a sharp burr on the inside. They both have the burrs.
The NOS 1914-15 has a 10" long tailpipe that is pushed into the rear head casting about 1-3/8", with 8-5/8" projecting out. The 1917 is about 3/8" shorter.

Erik-
I assume that your 1917 rear heads have the "V-shaped" lugs that keep the bolt heads from turning.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, January 30, 2016 - 03:34 am:

Thanks for the explanation. I should be able to replicate that with my pipe cutter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, January 30, 2016 - 06:44 am:

Ok, but what about Bruce's Parts Catalog entry? That says 1917-1920 cast iron with not tail pipe.



4040B is what I'm asking about, which is later in the production year and ran through 1920. In 1921, it changed to the press steel ends, also with no tail pipe, but then again the shape would be all wrong for a tail pipe (it wasn't round, it was kidney shaped).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, January 30, 2016 - 09:37 am:

4040B with the single bolt / no tailpipe came along sometime between August and October of 1917 so it is in the 1918 Model year like Erik said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, January 30, 2016 - 11:37 am:

Look at my prior post above and read the other thread I referenced.

The single bolt muffler sans tailpipe was recorded in April 1917 as experimental manufacture with limited production. Who knows how many (if any) were actually installed?

The single bolt muffler sans tailpipe was recorded as adopted for regular production in September 1917, the second month of the 1918 model year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 31, 2016 - 08:58 pm:

Ok, I get one idea stuck in my head and sometimes it's just hard to shake it.

Royce your picture that shows the end of the muffler with no pipe, just the round opening, that's also a 1917 did it ever have a tail pipe or is it the one Bruce was referring to bout cast iron with no tail pipe.

As to the single bolt muffler...mayhap it was used on Canadian cars? If Ford went to the expense of producing it in a limited quantity, then he used it on some cars somewhere...I mean he's not one to spend money and then not use whatever he spent time to design and manufacture without using it...it just doesn't figure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 31, 2016 - 09:02 pm:

I forgot to ask...is the 1914-1917 cast iron muffler smaller in diameter than the later mufflers? Seems look that way to me, or it may be just an optical illusion. But I'm going by the bolt holes in relation to the body...just looks smaller. The placement is different sure, but that's really immaterial, I allow for those placement differences.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, January 31, 2016 - 10:05 pm:

Royce commented on one of the two muffler threads that the muffler on his car had a tailpipe on it when his father purchased it in 1952 based on a photograph of the car right after his father bought it. His father installed wire wheels and a spare tire carrier on the car and probably removed the tailpipe at that time.

Royce's roadster was a very low mileage, pristine original car when his father bought it in 1952. My father helped his father bring it home - he can also vouch for the condition of the car. Today, it would be considered far to nice to restore.


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