OT- 1906 Model N E-bay

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: OT- 1906 Model N E-bay
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Skingley ......Westland, Michigan on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 07:23 am:

FYI

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-N-Model-N-Runabout-Restored-Benefits-CCCA-Museum-/1 51969366551?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2362148217:g:TYwAAOSwpzdWrrlx&item=15196936 6551


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Skingley ......Westland, Michigan on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 07:48 am:

Is 402 the casting number on all the blocks, or is it the S/N ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 08:32 am:

402 is the factory part number for the aluminum crankcase. The serial number for most Model NRS cars is on a cast aluminum pad to the left of the 402. The serial number of the car in question is hidden behind the Bosch magneto.

The serial number was also stamped into the plate nailed on to the front seat riser, just under the front seat. If the number on this plate is correct, this would be Model N #4185.

If someone is considering buying this car, I would encourage them to do their due diligence on the car first.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 08:58 am:

I think we are actually looking at a 1907 - 1908 Model N. The 1913 Holley Model S likely works better than an original carburetor. All the colors and upholstery are wrong, but really nice quality.

Still, it appears to be a well sorted driver. Might be a great deal at the right price for someone. Especially if it runs as good as it looks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 11:34 am:

Another reason why being careful with donating your car to a museum.. The previous owner, Margaret Dunning donated the car to the Classic Car of America Museum - and now, not even a year after her death at 104 they have it for sale :-(

Here's an earlier thread from her passing in May 2015: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/542639.html?1432061863

(Ok, she could have split her donation - her 1930 Packard fits better with the theme of the museum, but you can never never trust a museum to keep anything for posterity..)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 02:49 pm:

Good point Roger


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Schmidt ..... Seattle on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:13 pm:

And she or heirs signed an agreement to that most likely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:30 pm:

Roger,
That's exactly how we came to own our K Roadster. The original owner (actually son of the first owner) donated his family's Model K to the Larz Anderson museum in 1964. Sometime after his death, the museum, in financial distress, sold the K to the Imperial Palace. From there it went to a private collector, and now, on to us.

I'm sure the original owner, Web Knight, would have made different arrangements, had he known the museum would put his car "on the market." While we're fortunate to have the car as a result, one problem is each museum mentioned above had details and information about the car, that each destroyed, and now is lost forever.

Looks like an interesting Model N. If anyone is considering purchasing it, I hope they visit The Early Ford Registry site, and ask any questions, and of course, join the group if they buy the N, or have a general interest in pre-1910 Fords.

EFR site:
http://earlyfordregistry.com/index-desktop.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:42 pm:

Noticed that each of the 8 pipe plugs in the cylinders has a spark plug. Was a dual ignition common for the Model N?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:56 pm:

"each museum mentioned above had details and information about the car, that each destroyed, and now is lost forever."
That is against Standards of Museum Practices, but sadly happens frequently. IMHO, museums doing that should lose their accreditation, but that too, will never happen.
Stuff like that gives museums a bad name and destroys the public trust in museums, which, IMHO, is their most valuable asset.
Sorry, had to vent as a former museum curator.
David D.
PS you wouldn't believe (well, maybe you would) the stuff that was lost after they let me go, and had no curatorial staff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:10 pm:

If you "Give" your car to the museum it becomes their property to do with as they please, If you have your car "On Loan" to the museum it is still yours but on display and you maintain control of what happens to it. Like any enterprise a museum has expenses and has to pay for insurance, utilities, payroll etc. the best thing we can do is to support the museums so they don't have to sell inventory to keep the doors open.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:22 pm:

Thomas,
Several aftermarket magneto arrangements including Bosch were offered for NRS models. A friend has a Model S with a Bosch mag and the car runs very smooth on mag.

Ford didn't sell NRS with magnetos, but the surviving experimental six cylinder N has a factory made magneto mount on the side of the crankcase. There are articles about Henry Ford driving a six cylinder NRS around Detroit during 1908 (I presume the one that survives), however I have no idea if a mag was mounted on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:36 pm:

The car is at the CCCA museum in Hickory Corners, Mich. About 20 miles north of Kalamazoo Mich and just off I-94. A positively fantastic place to visit. I recommend anyone serious about the car travel to Hickory Corners and inspect the car.

They will enjoy the museum too.
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:44 pm:

Rob, I was lucky enough only 2 days ago to be looking at that magneto mounting set-up on the 6 cyl, that car is in a private collection of early Fords an hours drive from me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 05:11 pm:

Frank, Dave and I have spoken about the "six" on different occasions. What a great piece of history. I have two articles about HF driving the car, fast, and an article in a 1907 auto magazine about Ford coming out with a small six and four (T) cyl cars for 1908.

Maybe another thread......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:17 am:

If memory serves, a few years back at Chicksha were there not a couple of NRS motors in the back of a pickup being delivered to the new owner? Was one not a 6 cylinder? Keep in mind I'm old and can't remember what I had for breakfast today.

Just askin,

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 06:21 am:

Did the model N have size 30 X 3 wheels?
I think my wheels may be Model N?

Robbie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 07:35 am:

Model N has 28X3 wheels. Model R has 30X3 wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 07:45 am:

BCG,
One had a removable head, like a T prototype (four cyl.). One of our posters bought, or was in the process of buying it, and he has generously loaned it to Piquette, where it is now on display (at least the last time I saw it).

Another six cylinder NRS style engine/car survives, now located in Australia. That car runs,mand has been on tour in Australia in the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - West Melbourne Florida on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 08:32 am:

Does anyone need an arm or maybe a leg, I would love to own that car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kyle Pierce CT on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 09:23 am:

I second Jon's recommendation on visiting the CCCA Museum or Gilmore Classic Cars. It's a fantastic compound of not only cars but buildings as well.

I lived just a few miles from there years back and enjoyed going there. During the summer, every weekend there was an exclusive event. It was not limited to classic cars, but motorcycles, tractors, and just about anything on wheels. Of course there would be a swap meet tailored to the event going on too.

Definitely worth visiting.

Kyle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:07 pm:

Brass Car Guy & Rob,

The two engines you're referring to are the experimental, removable head engine and what is really a pre-production mock-up of an N engine, probably made in 1905. As Rob indicates, they are now both on loan at the Ford Piquette Plant, in the area where the Model T was invented.

Neither one are the 6 cylinder example.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Skingley ......Westland, Michigan on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 07:40 am:

Piquette engine........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 08:51 am:

Robert,
Thank you for posting the pic. It's tough to tell, but is this the removable head engine? If so, unlike the NRS engines, it also appears to have a one piece crankcase/transmission.

If you (or Jerry or anyone else) have a photo of the pre-NRS engine would you please post it too?
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 09:50 am:

Rob,

The photo above is the pre-NRS engine. The removable head engine is not shown here... yet. I don't have a copy handy here to post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Skingley ......Westland, Michigan on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 10:04 am:

Here is another under glass , and the picture is poor....is it the Oswald project engine or the experimental..........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 10:08 am:

Robert,

That is the Oswald project engine. It's now mounted in the chassis thanks to Dan Walters who had more extra time than I did to get things moving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 12:15 pm:

To answer Thomas's question about the spark plugs, I would think the car originally had 4 plugs and 4 primer cups.

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 12:35 pm:

Thomas & P.J.,

It had 4 sparkplugs only. Although, lots of people added primers. Ignition was like a T's, coilbox & timer, powered by battery only. The magneto shown on the auction car was a semi-popular aftermarket add-on. In this case, whoever did it also kept the original ignition intact, hence 8 plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:48 am:

Here is the removable head engine that Jerry was writing about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 10:00 am:

It's a very very nice car!! My question is do the NRS cars give free starts like a Model T?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 10:07 am:

Only when I'm lucky !!!!!! My "S" is easier to start then my "T"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 11:19 am:

Ken,
Yes, our N and both K have had free starts. As Bruce mentions, NRS are easier to start, with 155 vs. 177 cu. (T) inch engines. The K, with 405 cu. inches, not so much. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 12:48 pm:

To answer the question Kenneth just asked, based upon what I know and the experience I have had with my own Model N, I think the answer is potentially yes, but it does not occur often.

Starting a Model N (remember that this is based on my experience, and may not be true of everyone) is very different from starting a Model T. First of all, there is no choke rod to pull out. Choking an N with an original carburetor is done by brute force, meaning that after the driver sets the spark and throttle rods in the correct location, with the ignition off, the driver must open the left side door in the hood and put a hand on the intake of the carburetor to restrict the amount of air coming in, while cranking the engine over one or two times. The intent is to load the cylinders with plenty of the fuel/air mixture. The Holley Model W carburetor that was used on late '07 and through '08 NRS cars does have a lever on top that will depress the carburetor float, thus allowing the level of gas in the carburetor to rise. I've tried it on the Model W on my car, but I can't say it is as successful at starting the car as putting my hand over the air intake, which is very easy to reach on a Model W.

After loading the cylinders with the rich fuel/air mixture, then I go back to turn on the switch. NRS cars did not originally come with magnetos, so the electricity for starting and running the ignition system came from batteries. Model Ns came with two banks of six large dry cell batteries (think telephone or model airplane starting batteries), and Model R and S cars were suppose to come with wet cell storage batteries. If the crankshaft and pistons are in just the right position, turning on the switch will send electricity to the coils, producing ignition sparks, and possibly setting off the charge in the cylinders causing the car to start without cranking. This is what is known in the hobby as a free start.

Well, that is the theory, but in reality it is harder to do. For some reason Model NRS cars (again in my experience) don't often (in my case never) give free starts. I am not sure I understand why, but I suspect that the starting position for the spark is not the same as a Model T. It has a long arc, and because the cars are battery powered, you will get a stream of sparks at any setting of the spark lever on the quadrant. This also means that ignition timing can be advanced to almost any point on the compression and power strokes on the engine. You would get the same result if you ran a Model T on battery all the time as well.

Now for the good news: despite having to go through the long process I have just described, Model NRS cars (again, in my experience – your results may vary) start with only one or two pulls of the crank. So they are pretty easy to start.

Just a couple more related comments about starting a Model NRS. First, you need to make sure the emergency brake pedal (yes pedal, not lever) is firmly set. The ratchet is attached to the pedal and the pall is attached to the floorboard. With the vibration associated with starting the engine, it is not uncommon for the pall to become disengaged from the ratchet. Even with the car in neutral, there is enough friction in the transmission to cause the car to come up and nuzzle you. I always put a block in front of a rear wheel to prevent this. Of course I have to remove the block before driving off.

The second, and very important point is the ignition derives its power from a battery, and batteries run down. One of my favorite quotes is from the Reminiscences of James Purdie, (he assisted Spider Huff in the design of the Model T magneto) who wrote that you could drive from here (Detroit) to Port Huron any day of the week and see cars along the side of the road. “The battery was dead, the battery was dead.

And finally, I have had that happen as well. On one tour I had to go into a hardware store to buy a lantern battery before I could get back on the road.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 01:45 pm:

Thank's to everyone and with the quote about the battery we can see how it was in the pre T times! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

This is an example of our (former) K touring free starting. Everything is original down to the Buffalo carburetor and cast iron pistons.

I think the key to a free start is having the carb set correctly to take over after that first bit of explosion. I almost always richer the mixture a little. I've also found turning the switch on with the spark advanced, then retarding to spark and immediately advancing when the explosion occurs seems to help. Maybe because the next sparks are advanced as the motor begins to run:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93Ez6UAPgbo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 02:48 pm:

In the earlier days, many gasoline cars ran on a battery and coil only. Battery running out was a common breakdown. This was especially true on less expensive cars because although magnetos did exist and were available, good ones were very expensive.
I wish I could afford this model N. I could fix the problem with the color.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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