O.T. Metz 22 engine advice, t parts compatibility

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: O.T. Metz 22 engine advice, t parts compatibility
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:18 pm:

Helping a friend get his family owned Metz 22 special back on the road. So many similarities with our T engines. I assume the original valves are 2 piece? The valves, springs, keepers all seem like T parts could be utilized. The engine is open valve ( with shroud) so pooling looks to be manually done?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:29 pm:

I can't answer any of your questions, but what a neat project! The Metz 22 uses friction drive, right? I would love to see some pictures of the project, if you have pics posted somewhere, can you post a link to them here? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:42 pm:

I do, and I will ASAP. This little car is very original and never outside, solid. Some interesting engineering. Little to no wear in any of the engine but for the intake valves. Maybe they sucked in dusty air around the stems?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:48 pm:

The friction drive mechanism may have had its shortcomings, but it is a fascinating way of going forward or back. Reminds me of a simplified continuously variable transmission of sorts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:51 pm:

Yeah Metz. I'm looking forward to pictures too.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:53 pm:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bruckzone/albums/72157664017091762


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

In the T engine the valves get oiled by crankcase "mist". I'm "mist"ified at how the valves get lube on this engine if not for the operator adding it externally?

Also, does anyone know the best way to remove the camshaft? I assume out the front but not sure of the small gear on the back and if it will fit past the bearing areas. From the looks of the side of the engine, there may be cam bearings similar to the T in there as I see 2 pins in about the same spot as the T has for cam bearing retention.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:32 pm:

Neat pics! That rack and pinion steering gear makes me a little nervous, though. Is there a bearing behind the rack to keep it from bending away from the pinion gear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:54 pm:

Not sure. I'll drag an eye over it again next time I'm there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 04:57 pm:

Notice the factory machine marks on the block and head. Both are still completely flat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 05:10 pm:

The two holes in the valves for a grinding tool is just a sign it's two piece valves on a Model T - the Metz valve doesn't look like its made from different materials like the T valves are, so it's possible the Metz valves are better than old Ford valves.
Disclaimer - I haven't got any experience with Metz quality, so it's only what I think from looking at the picture :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 05:56 pm:

Neat little cars! I wish mine was anywhere near as nice as his is. (Mine is a rusty, broken, pile of mostly bad parts, but could be restored). Your pictures do show at least three different cars.
I have researched Metz for many years, and know a fair bit about them (but do not consider myself an expert by any stretch). I may be able to answer some specific questions.

The Yahoo groups Metz crowd I think is here, (I haven't visited in a couple years because I hate yahoo), but they are a good, and helpful bunch of people.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/metzauto/info

Another good Metz information site.

https://metzauto.wordpress.com/

Also, Phil Jamison, one of our occasional posters on this forum, is an HCCA forum moderator and Metz 22 owner, and active on both of those Metz forums.

More from me, later.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 07:03 pm:

Your car looks like a "Special Roadster", which was an orange/red color minus a few accessories of the regular roadster. My "22" valves were one-piece, but not sure if they were original. A lot of stuff from the T fits, including the head gasket (with one center hole slightly enlarged). The pistons are slightly different (the way the pins fit), but Egge machined some T pistons to fit my Metz. Your car has some features usually missing: the round "Metz" plaque and oil-fill cover. You can see my car here: http://forums.aaca.org/topic/161545-1913-metz-22/?hl=metz
I got sidetracked with my T, so I haven't worked on it for a while!

Phil

(Message edited by veloman on February 01, 2016)

(Message edited by veloman on February 01, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 08:41 pm:

Erich-
I was beginning to think you fell off the world.
This must be John's car in Frank's garage?
He was asking me about valves at the HCCA meeting last week. I send him home with some Metz head studs I had from the Metz block I had once upon a time. I warned him about Ford's two-piece valves. Maybe some of the other Metz guys can enlighten us. The valves look really good.
I would think the camshaft would come out the same was as on a Model T. Does it need to come out?

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 10:03 pm:

Is the yellow touring Frank Hurley's Cartercar?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Monday, February 01, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

Back in the day when you could find model t parts in local dumps, a member of our local model t club found an early model t engine at the bottom of the dump.

He and his buddy spent most of a very hot Saturday dragging this motor up the steep bank of the dump. Once they got it up and inspected it carefully, it was not an open valve T motor but a damned Metz motor. They then pitched it back down over the bank and it rolled over and over to the bottom of the pit. The dump was in Colville Washington and I suppose its still there.

the laugh was on them

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 01:37 am:

Yes, it is Frank's CarterCar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 01:53 am:

I certainly wasn't sure, but I thought that was Frank's Cartercar!

Howard, I might be willing to drive up and look for that engine if you want to help me find it????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 03:21 pm:

In the early sixties I brought a 15 touring from North Dakota to Oregon. At the time rods were my love but I had started picking up parts to make it run. The mag was external and with a magnet charge I fired the engine up with a handle bolted to the fly wheel About all I remember about the engine is a T head gasket would fit with one bolt hole opened up. The oil feed to the front of the engine was gutter like built into the side of the aluminum pan. The friction wheel was replaced built by some outfit in SE Portland for about 25.00 then. It had chain drive to the rear end. Think Chev pistons were used but that's a long time for my memory!! Sold the car in Portland after starting a family. it was a big project in its condition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 04:52 pm:

The Metz engines were quite adaptable to stationary use. There is no attached transmission like a T, and the crankshaft extends out the rear of the engine making a power take-off simple. They have an external Bosch high-tension magneto; thus, no coil boxes needed. They also had an oil pump. I assume the valves get oil like they do on a T.

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 05:41 pm:

The valves look to me like one piece? The exhaust valves are little worn but the intakes have wear ridges in the stems. The cam would need to come out if we need to drop the lifters (little to no wear) to make clearance for a valve guide reamer in the event the intake valves need to be replaced with the next larger size.


Keith, I didn't fall off the earth, just lost my grip for a moment, lol.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

Wayne,

The dump was in Colville north of Spokane. If you google photo Colville you might still see if the dump is there.

At the base of the dump was a river and I suppose now the enviro's have long covered the ground, and declared the ground contaminated. About the same time of the Metz motor my father and I found a 1912 Overland chassis mostly complete at the same dump. Oh for the old days where brass car stuff was just laying on the ground.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


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