Lurkers (forum history)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Lurkers (forum history)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Horton on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 11:38 am:

People such as myself are often referred to as lurkers on this forum. Since we have become a society that is offended at the drop of a hat now, Im wondering if we should change the label to something that would make it more difficult for anyone to be offended. After all, the word lurker can and does bring up mental images of dark alleys, peeping toms and other nefarious types. Someone recently referred to us here as The Silent Ones, which should be acceptable to most everyone and could be shortened to TSOs. That alone would probably make it acceptable to the former military types, including myself. However, my personal choice would be that we be referred to as Non-Active Participates, which would then be shortened to NAP's

Id put a smiley face on this, but my computer skills suck!!

Cheers,

Ron, UTAH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 11:44 am:

Ron,

Thanks for venturing out of the darkness. What about just "The Others"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 11:48 am:

I guess we could use L(NOI) (standing for "Lurker (No Offense Intended)." :-)

P.S. You make the smiley here by typing a : followed by a ) with no space between.

With space... : )
Without space... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:01 pm:

I take one of those most days! :-) Welcome to the forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:16 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:19 pm:

With 21 posts in two years you're reaching "intermittent contributor" status. Welcome, Ron :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

Howdy Ron, Welcome On Board!

Roger, I hear there's a "little Blue Pill" for the "intermittent contributor". Ask Bob Dole!:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Gall on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:41 pm:

I like that - NAP. I think I'll take one now!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:46 pm:

Can't use the "The Silent Ones". That would offend mutes,those that can't talk.

Just make sure to check with your quack, er uh doctor,before taking the "little blue pill",to make sure you are healthy enough to make a contribution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 12:49 pm:

I personally LOVE a good nap! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dwayne Durand on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 04:42 pm:

Proudly lurking since.... a couple of years ago.

Dictionary.com defines a lurker as a verb:

1.to lie or wait in concealment, as a person in ambush; remain in or around a place secretly or furtively.

2.to go furtively; slink; steal.

3.to exist unperceived or unsuspected.

4.Chiefly Computers. to read or observe an ongoing discussion without participating in it, as on a message board.

It is much better to lurk than to bloviate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James M. Riedy, Sandusky, Ohio on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 06:26 pm:

You could just call us "THEM" and we could take all the blame for the bad things that happen on the forum. You know " Don't blame ME blame THEM."

Jim (one of THEM)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 08:56 pm:

Actually most of us started out as lurkers so we could figure out if we wanted to post anything or even if we wanted to come back to this site. Someone might lurk once and think to themselves -- nope that's not the site to help me with my 1923 T-bucket. While at another time the same individual might come back again and again because they were finding the support and information they were looking for to help them with a T. Anyone that has an interest about Model Ts (and don't forget the Pre-Ts have a chapter in the club also) can usually find something they enjoy on the site.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 10:09 pm:

Lot more active on the forum when my shop is as cold as the outdoors
So 50% lurker


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 11:53 pm:

I am a fended. (What the hey, spellcheck likes it?) I always figured that us is always us unless it is them in which case them is us and us is them unless they aren't.

Welcome from the shadows!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 12:21 am:

I say Lurkers are welcome. They wouldn't be lurking if they here if they were not interested in Model T's. Heck, they just might go out and buy one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 01:42 am:

Wayne, to quote Walt Kelly (author of Pogo), "We have met the enemy, and he is Us!"
His other infamous statement, "God is not Dead, he's merely unemployed."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 02:31 am:

Walt Kelly was the best! Pogo is my all-time favorite comic strip.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco - Winchester Va. on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 06:38 am:

I'm a lurker, or a them, or an other....I don't own a Model T, although I have other early and later cars....but you guys are just so damned interesting, and I can't stay away! Very few forums are as active as this one, and it's always fun.

I chime in when there's something useful (hopefully) on my mind, which is infrequent (uh, wait a minute..), but otherwise just lurk away!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wes Nelson ........Bucyrus, MO on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 08:46 am:

I'm watching yous...



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wes Nelson ........Bucyrus, MO on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 08:46 am:

I'm watching yous...



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wes Nelson ........Bucyrus, MO on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 08:48 am:

sorry for the double post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 09:38 am:

I read on this site for several years before I decided to join and buy a Model T. I wouldn't have been able to buy my first T or the last T without feeling that I could ask and get information from more than one perspective from the members of this forum. I always restored model A s and other early Ford's. After creeping on the sight I decided this was the place for me because of the wealth of knowledge and opinions. I have been a member of plenty of other forums/clubs but at least here you get good info from people who know about our.T s!! I appreciate the help from all involved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 01:39 pm:

Wayne, two of the funniest "comic books" written, IMHO< are "Pogo's Stepmother Goose" and "Uncle Pogo's So-So stories. My Dad would read them to us, and we'd say, "Daddy!! Stop laughing and read!" I read them to my little sister, and she'd say the same thing. Our copies were so dog-eared that I bought some nice ones off eBay to have.
One of my favorite scenes was three characters sneaking up on a building, with a sign on the roof, "See Sam for Secrets." Two of the characters are arguing, and the third says loudly, "Shh! We are sneaking up!" Sam comes out of the door and says, "Who are you sneaking up on?" "Well, you!" "Oh! do you have a sneak permit?" "No." "You're in luck, I write them! Here you go." "Thank you," and they proceed to try to enter. "Wait! I must see your permit!" "Here" "Ah HA! Just as I thought, this permit is fake, off to Siberia with you!" "But you just wrote it!" "Yes, but I spelled "sneak" wrong!"
(that may not be the exact wording, but it's close)

Wes, Marty Feldman Eyes!! ROFL!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 02:09 pm:

How about "Watchers"? Gives them an air of mystery. Mainly because it's a mystery why they don't jump in. The water's fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

My Grandmother's favourite saying.. The good Lord gave us 2 eyes, 2 ears but only one mouth. He must have done it for a reason.
Mostly lurker Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 07:31 pm:

I'm not a regular contributor to the forum (because I'm a mechanical imbecile!!! -- my strength is history) but I sure do appreciate all the information I've learned from you guys! Thanks!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Hoekstra - Katy TX on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 11:41 pm:

I may be the champion lurker having visited this forum nearly daily since 1997. A little background. I retired from my 30 year career in 1995. Around that time, my son took in trade a basket case 1924 Model Coupe. "Here, Dad; your retirement project." However I soon came out of retirement when an offer I couldn't refuse came my way. The coupe languished. But my interest in Model Ts was piqued. I soon purchased a 1923 rolling chassis and touring body. I joined the local Houston club, the Space City Ts. I joined the MTFCA.

And then it happened. The editor of the club newsletter retired. It wasn't so much that I volunteered as it was that the rest of the membership took one step back.

Now I had a job, two Model Ts and a monthly newsletter to produce every month. Life happens and the Model T's languished. Until nearly twenty years later I retired for good from both work and the newsletter 2014. Now I am in process of resurrecting the touring. The engine is at a rebuilder and I am overhauling the rear axle.

The reason for this post is that I recently culled my newsletter files and came across a piece I penned for the April 2002 issue of the Flivver Flash. I thought the regulars on the forum might find interesting the early history of the forum. And, that history does repeat.
It is from the monthly feature called Post Script where we placed random and miscellaneous articles. Please keep in mind the context of time in which it was written. It begins here.

Post Script

Part of our daily routine is to log on to our computer and click on the Model T Ford Club of America website and check the activity on the Forum. Invariably, we learn something new. Usually, the topics are Model T technical in nature. To be sure, there are off-topic postings, but even then they are usually educational.

The forum had its beginnings back in 1997 when Gus Stangland of the Dallas Model T club hosted a website called the Fordbarn. It was then that he came up with the idea of a functional message board dedicated to the Model T Ford. On February 7 of that year, Gus made the announcement that it was open for business. The first reply, by Alex Meron of Manistique, Michigan came 2 days later. We found the forum a dozen posts later and made our first posting on March 1 concerning a question about Model T clip art that could be used in club newsletters.

From there the forum grew to be one the best and most respected automotive websites on the Internet. In the meantime, Gus toiled tirelessly to continue improve the website until such time, it was offered as the official website for the MTFCA. The website continued to be very popular and no doubt was instrumental in the rapid growth of membership in the MTFCA. The day came that Gus wished to direct his attention to other interests and asked to be relieved of the duties. Bruce McCalley and Terry Horlick stepped in as volunteers and have run the website since then. In the meantime, Gus sold the domain rights of www.fordbam.com and it is still a viable Ford website.

For those who have no interest in computers and Internet, the preceding may be boring. However, the impact that the website has had on the Model T hobby is immense. In the early 90's the membership in antique car clubs was in the doldrums. Prices of Model T's were dropping. Then came the Internet revolution and the MTFCA website that opened the world of Model T's to a whole new generation.

The forum produced a cast of characters who were regular posters that gave the process a personality of its own. Many participants were experts on Model T's and brought a wealth of knowledge that was available to all who came to read the postings. It became like a big family. some were leaders, others were followers who read and didn't often contribute, but came away the wiser for having read what others offered. And there was humor. Some of the most hilarious things we have ever read were found on the forum. For the most part, there was a lot of friendly give and take. To be sure, there were rough spots, but the forum was pretty much self policing.

That is, until recently. When so many personalities cross paths, eventually, misunderstandings crop up. We have looked in on other automotive forums that are dedicated to late model vehicles, such as Mustangs and F150 trucks. These forums are populated, for the most part, by "young buckin' broncs" and dialog gets rather salty there.

In the past year more incidents of "flaming" began to occur on the MTFCA forum. A stern warning was issued last year by no less than the respected authority on Model T's, Trent Boggess. If behavior did not improve at once, the Board of Directors would take action regarding the operation of the forum. Immediately, the tone of the forum became more civil.

Recently, uncivil discourse became an issue again. There were a lot of new people showing up on the forum and, as it tums out, many were non-members for what ever reason. They may have been sitting on the fence before joining the MTFCA. On the other hand it became evident that some were not about to join. Now, the forum is free and open and all are welcome to participate. Even with the non-members, the MTFCA has received a great benefit in increased overall membership. But, along with this free gift comes responsibility to each other.
A lot of grousing and demands were being made about the operation of the MTFCA. People were openly ridiculed and it seemed that each retort produced a more vicious response.

On March 11, we checked it to see what was transpiring and we were greeted with a message that the forum was unavailable. The following day, the message was still there. Then slowly, the word got out on two other forums; the Model T Ford Club International and old Fordbarn. The MTFCA Board ofDirectors had enough of the bickering and backbiting. In conjunction with the annual national meeting held in Anaheim, California, the decision was made to shut down the forum.

We question the abrupt shutdown without warning, but that is the board's prerogative. At this writing on March 19, 2002 the MTFCA is weighing options as to how to best administer the forum in the future. Old editions of forum are now available, but no one is posting. The heading carries this message: Welcome! You are visitor 614,072 to the MTFCA Forum since September 21 , 2000.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 12:47 am:

Stan-
It is good to hear from you again.

Welcome back! Don't stay away from another 14 years...

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 01:58 am:

Statistics show that convicted lurkers, even after doing their time and going through court-
appointed rehab programming, are 79.182% likely to lurk again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Kiefaber on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 06:07 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andria Myers on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 10:57 am:

Holy strawberries Batman we're in a jam!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Fielding "Ewe-taw" on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 12:57 pm:

Hi, my name is Kevin and I'm a..............................lurker!:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 09:16 am:

Stan's post above made me think of Hurc and Poodles and Noodles at the Roadkill Caf.
I still chuckle at that one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 09:29 am:

Herb, are they still serving the "Slab O' Lab" at the roadkill?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

You know with all this talk about the "lurkers" or the "watchers" or whatever you want to call them, it got me wondering, where is Hugh Jass? He was always chiming in about roofing tar.
I always figured he was a regular that was having fun with a alias.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 02:18 pm:

You know with all this talk about the "lurkers" or the "watchers" or whatever you want to call them, it got me wondering, where is Hugh Jass? He was always chiming in about roofing tar.
I always figured he was a regular that was having fun with a alias.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 03:55 pm:

I see nothing wrong with lurking. I have occasionally lurked at other Forums outside of MTFCA and MTFCI, and those forums haven't called me names nor have I caught any flack over lurking at the other forums.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

Guess you just have to go to LA--Lurkers' Anonymous, not the city where almost anything goes! Somehow that coincidence seems appropriate!!
:-)
Isn't it great that the Forum came back??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 02:53 pm:

I like Lurkers,

I don't like people that don't list there city or location with their name. That should be a requirement when posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 02:17 am:

Maybe Ron has a point. I went to the online thesaurus and entered lurker in an attempt to find a more PC synonym. The words that came up were: Prowler, Burglar, Crook, Housebreaker, Pilferer, Robber and Sneakthief, none of which describes anyone that frequents this forum.

I did however come up with a few suitable substitutes on my own that describes one who would rather watch than participate:
Observers, purusers, readers, watchers, spectators, patrons, onlookers, followers, fans, viewers, etc... Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 02:39 am:

I tried lurking once, in college. But I didn't inhale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 08:32 am:

How about IP's for Interested parties?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 08:46 am:

Thanks Stan, I miss your monthly newsletter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 09:55 am:

We could call them "Peepers" but then that would open up another can of worms wouldn't it! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 10:28 am:

Dennis, Peepers is better than Peeping Toms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 10:30 am:

Geez, Political correctness is a mental disorder!! Lurkers are Lurkers!! We don't need no stinking Politically correct title for them. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 10:40 am:

I'm surprised this thread is still going so I'll chime in. I'm between intermittent contributor and lurker and don't care what I'm referred to as. Our T ownership was too brief (had 3 at one point) so I have no mechanical expertise to impart. Were members of MTFCA and MTFCI as well as the South Carolina club and had one of our cars in the coffee table book that came out several years ago. I do however come to this site every day in hopes of learning more than I knew the day before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 11:04 am:

But Jay .... ours is a society where feeling good about ourselves (at any cost) is the highest priority !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 11:23 am:

Yeah Burger, Can't wait for my son to come home with a trophy for winning 14th place in the spelling bee and a gold star for using the ladies room! :-)

WHAT'S NEXT???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 11:51 am:

There is an easy solution for anyone that dislikes being labeled a Lurker: Participate on the MTFCA Forum like Ron did! Welcome Ron, you are now an Active Participant, AP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 08:55 pm:

I think those of us that consider our selves normal are being considered as having a disorder.
"Old Normalizm" or something like that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 11:27 pm:

The old guys that hang around the airport hangers everyday are called airport rats, the old guys that hang around here are all forum rats.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, May 14, 2016 - 01:01 pm:

When I was a punk-ass kid, my friends and I referred to ourselves as "The F$#@g Kids"
after an old duffer yelled "Hey you f$#@g kids, I'm gonna come out there and break your
#@! necks !" because the apples we were throwing at cars (at 2am) were hitting his house
on the far side of the street.

It was an epiphanal moment, as all of us suddenly were awakened to an awareness of how
we were seen by others, and how mischievous kids are looked at by more serious adults.

Being a former child and having raised some F$#@g Kids of my own, the whole concept
is as alive and relevant today as it was 40 years ago. I still refer to myself as one of the F$#@g
Kids. :-)

Somehow being called a lurker just sounds like a bunch of PC whining by people who
take their station in life too seriously.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, May 14, 2016 - 01:53 pm:

What a wast of forum space!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, May 14, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

Space---the final frontier. . . .
BTW, "Space" used to be a "land word"--"Wide open spaces" Trekking across the plains to go to California was exploring those wide-open spaces.
And yes, I did mean to use that pun--although it didn't hit me until after I typed that!
Live Long and Prosper!
:-)
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, May 18, 2016 - 10:20 pm:

Hey, I resemble some of those remarks. :-)
Yeah, you inhaled, just admit it. So did I. :-)

2002? Wow. That's the year of the last tabs on my Roadsters plates...... Life got busy, I got tuckered out. The Ford sat, watching me with its big eyes and waiting for me.
Back in the late 90's, I had little to go on when my crappy little Ford was being forced together and now I can say that...... Get it?.

Wast of space? No. Never here! VERY interesting for some of us. :-) Look at who came out of the woodwork. :-) THAT'S COOL.
Another thought-provoking thread here.
I'm three days behind lately with this forum, newish here and some days afraid to bump a thread (unless I laugh too hard or cry too hard/some I still lurked) as I try to catch up.

"Station in life" is for the snooty people on this planet. Was exposed to someone like that in another life. It sucked as I was being honest to this fella but my friend/VP chewed his ass for doing it.
This forum is sometimes more irreverent. I like that. I refuse to take life too seriously. It's fleeting.
Great topic!
Back to under the porch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Wednesday, May 18, 2016 - 11:46 pm:

I heard it said the other day that we are becoming a nation of 300 million classes of one... I'm so empowered by that notion that I just declared myself the king of the me, myself and I club. So get outa my space!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, May 19, 2016 - 09:09 pm:

I guess I'm an intermittent contributor, as I only post when I've got a drawing done and looking for comments and corrections. Even though I only post occasionally I'm working on Model T whether drawing, helping with a car or working on my car (and sometimes all three :-) ). But most times I come here and read all the current postings...sometimes I even comment...soooo, I guess I'm a lurker/intermittent contributor...hmmm...I think you need a new category. :-)


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