Just a bit of a frustration story I guess. My grandfather tuned 85 3 weeks ago (Happy Birthday!). He doesn't get his T out too often anymore, largely because he has nowhere to drive it. Where he lives used to be a peaceful rural area outside the city that he bought in 1950. His was the last house on the street next to a large farm. Now he's surrounded by housing development suburbia and highways. He can't take it out onto the heavily traveled roads, and the Homeowner's association has told him not to drive the Roadster in the neighborhood.Do you guys see an increasing trend of fewer places to be able to drive your T's safely?
So, now it is illegal to drive a legally licensed vehicle on the streets in the HOA? Hmm, we can drive golf carts on the street legally here.
Tell his homeowners association to go pound sand! They have absolutely no right to say that and if I was him I would start driving it around the neighborhood on a daily basis just to make a point. I now live in one of those neighborhoods with an association unfortunately and if you would let them they would tell you when to go to the bathroom. They are usually run by people who have nothing better to do than to stick there noses in everybody else's business and worst of all they always know what's best for you! At 83 it is probably just as well that your father stays off heavily trafficked roads but there is no reason in hell why he shoulldn't be able to drive around his neighborhood and enjoy his T.
Yeah I don't know what their deal was either. I guess they complained about the noise as he was doing laps around the neighborhood one day. Fortunately enough for him he doesn't actually live in the HOA area itself, but it's a few hundred yards down from his house.
I'm confused, If he's not in the HOA then they have no say on what he can and can't do.
Unless the road is marked private, and the car is unregistered and/or uninspected, then they (HOA) don't have a leg to stand on. I know it is more difficult in some areas than others to drive these things, I thought he was in a decent area--colonie?? I don't remember exactly, you can PM it to me if you want.
I am also betting due to age he is not driving it as fast either, which can be just as dangerous to other motorist who are mainly not familiar with "slower" Model T's. Again, if the car is totally legal for NY roads, a safety triangle and perhaps some flashing amber lights (hazard lights) should suffice on any public secondary roads. The only place I have seen minimum speeds required here are on I-787, and I-90. I don't even believe that I-87 (northway) has a minimum speed posted, but I sure wouldn't try it with a T
Yeah, I don't get this either. I live in a development and can tell you that every few years the board goes a bit nuts. New people get elected and on occasion there's a potential "emperor" voted in and an a** kicking usually follows. Some folks just suck and that's a fact. We have a motorcycle restriction but it involves noise which no one wants so it's kind of OK but a legal car? Not enough info here for a rational judgement.
I read the first post and said to myself "to go pound sand" but Vic beat me to it. If the car is legal with license and insurance, there would be a lot of mile put on the T. I would bet that there would be a volunteer rider. Get a few more folks willing to take a little ride around the neighborhood maybe the attitudes would change as well.
I live in the "perfect T town" as its small, no traffic lights, no cross intersections, mostly no gutters and dead flat. The main highway is 500m off to the side of the town edge so no passing trucks etc traffic drive through the town. Plus locals love to see the old cars out and I always get a friendly reaction when driving.
3 mins from my gate I can drive for 20 minutes on open sealed canal road and probably not pass a car
I think these types of places are fading as society gets overcrowded, faster and people get more stressed, I'm very lucky.
I hope your grandfather keeps driving his T Matthew.
Hey Chad, how have you been? Yeah, he lives on the edge of Cohoes/Latham down by the twin bridges. The issue for him is he's essentially land locked. If you go left out of his house he only gets a mile of road before hitting heavily traveled roads that driving a T on is risky. He'd have to travel that for a couple miles before hitting back roads again. If he goes right there's the HOA neighborhood which gives him trouble, and beyond that more heavy roads. His age is definitely a factor. I think he's too nervous to risk a couple miles on heavily traversed roads to make it to the safer areas.
You need to find out if the road in question is a private road and whether his property is now part of the development. My aunt and uncle owned (now my cousin owns) a private road right smack in the middle of a city's residential area. It's a private road just as if it were a private driveway. He has to do his own maintenance but he can regulate traffic if he so desires. The HOA can regulate development roads if they weren't assigned to the city. The question would be if your grandfather's property is now part of the development AND he pays dues to the HOA. If it's city streets, THEN tell them to pound salt.
That's not to say a LEO won't follow him around and pick on him for the slightest violation.
Thanks for the responses guys. I think a lot of it comes down to he's afraid to risk those short spots of heavy traffic to make it to safer areas anymore. He was shaking bad when we drove the Roadster from his house to the lansingburgh parade last year. I trust his driving unquestionably: it's the other people I worry about. As far as the HOA neighborhood goes his house is not part of that neighborhood. I DO believe that cul de sac is a private drive though so they probably can tell him to leave. It's just a shame though since he's scared to cross the heavily traveled roads and that small area is one of the few safe spots he'd like to drive without having to trailer the car. Maybe I can convince him to ride along and I'll drive for him when we hit the heavy spots.
Matt, your last sentence is exactly what I was going to suggest.
I know the nervousness of driving something slow on a "30 mph" road. I like to take the T doodlebug down the road and luckily it is smaller width wise so I can usually hug the side of the road and wave people around. But I usually do this in off peak hours, I have no doubt things would get ugly fast between 7:30-9:30am and 3:30-6:30pm. If I get brave and decide to go "around the block", that is a mile and a half and it feels like forever as I assume I am only doing 15-18 mph. And I know that fear when cars start getting behind me and I am holding things up.
If the car is capable of town speed (which it should be), I think I would make the effort to get there as much as possible and take him out and share driving duty. You may not get to much longer to do that.
When I moved to the Denver metro area 11 years ago I told my relator that I would not buy a house in a HOA. At first she thought I was crazy and showed me several houses in such. After a close personal discussion she saw the light! I have no desire, and will never live in, a community that is governed by narrow minded folks that are outraged if you leave your garage door open for more that 15 minutes, feel the need to fine you for parking your pickup truck in the driveway and feel the need to approve what colors you paint your house! On top of that you have to pay dues to these anal idiots! Sorry for the rant but I will never give up my freedom and/or rights to live in a Stepford development where your freedom is limited by narrow minded stupid people!
I can't help but second, in a big way, what Paul's saying. It's like putting yourself in prison and, speaking for myself, I am far too much of an old fashioned rebel to live in some sort of controlled, Utopian society. 'scuse me while I light up a big stogie and smoke it on my porch-- which in Califuny could quickly rise to a felony offense.
Come on,Paul, what do you really think? Actually, that's about what I think too. I'm very lucky in many ways, and one of the ways is that when I sit on my front porch swing the view is a wheat field, trees, and sky, and nobody cares what legal vehicle I drive. I too would never want to deal with HOA nonsense.
Buttheads with giant blue-tarp-wrapped boats on trailers in their driveway and such are the
reason HOA's exist. Just another example of a few people who don't respect their neighbors
giving said neighbors a reason to wish for restrictive rules to keep those types from working
their "beautification magic".
That said, I would sooner become the hated neighbor, raising hell about trashy neighbors than
ever sign on to live in a hoity-toity world of vinyl siding and manicured plastic yards (insert
puking icon here).
The way more and more of the hoy-pelloy are accepting of this kind of living arrangement
makes me wonder where we are heading, but I probably only have another 40 years on this
planet, at best, so it can all go to hell in a handbasket for all I care !!! Let those who want
their own personal Gestapo have it and pay dues for the privilege. That ain't my cup of meat !!!
HOA's or not, I just can't fathom someone trying to force their ideas of what I should do on my own property, within limits of course. These people are WAY outside of my limits! After doing a stint in the Army, '69-'71, I made a promise to myself, nobody is going to tell me what I can think or do with my own stuff! Fortunately, I'll never have to worry about that, I can't afford to live in one of those areas anyway! Those people are NUTS!!! JMHO. Dave
Mao wrote that to defeat an enemy, one must understand that enemy. As a one-time fool who
thought he'd like to be an attorney, this axiom of operation has stuck in my head forever. It helps
a lot in problem resolution and personnel issues. I don't think very many people try to see both
sides of an issue, thinking it defeats their own position. I have no problem seeing "the other side",
even if I disagree with it.
Digging one's heels in makes finding any resolution (for whatever the issue) that much more difficult.
The very notion of why people think HOA's are needed is absurd and pathetic, if neighbors respect
each other's interest in not living at the dump. But when Jethro Clampett throws up a tarp city or
a drug house next door, one might wish they had their own set of "clamps" to throw on ol' Jethro !
I'm way out in the country, except for the old schoolhouse across the street, I can hardly see my neighbor's porch light--and that's just on the west side, on the east side, there's nothing for about 1/4 mile. Nonetheless, the place to the west is a rental & the last renter took logging trucks apart in his front yard. That was a bit disconcerting, as most of us felt it downgraded the area. Fortunately, he moved away and the new renters are much neater, although their dogs bark too much (however the pesky deer population seems to be down since the dogs moved in--ying & yang! My stash of T parts is scattered around behind my "upper garage" which is across the creek, and far out of sight of the road, or any prying eyes, save for the drug enforcement helicopters! And they can't really see it for the trees. Whew, otherwise someone might be after me for an unlicensed scrap yard! You know how it is, one man's treasure is another man's junk--and the government's opportunity to collect fees!
Matthew it sounds like you need to have a tour there with 20 or so Ts then they will not complain about one. Cheers Colin
Drive it in defiance.
And carry paper bags of dog poop and a lighter. Never know when you'll need to hand those out.
Burger has a point: "Digging one's heels in makes finding any resolution (for whatever the issue) that much more difficult."
If the area is residential, then the vehicle speed is between 15 to 45 MPH, he should be well within the speed limit in a Model T.
Since the gentleman is not part of the HOA - he is not bound by their rules - and if/since he was there before the development - he is "grandfathered in." The new rules of the HOA should not apply to him. If the vehicle is registered and insured to the state requirements he is legal to be on the road. ( Question - maybe asked - who maintains the road and the utilities under the road? If the road is maintained by the local government or state then a legally registered vehicle operated properly and should not be a problem. But if the road is maintained by the HMO then there may be an issue.)
A suggestion would be for the gentleman to establish his own set of rules. A sort of "this is my policy". Just prepare a written statement about driving his T in the area, with Motor Vehicle chapter and verse about operating a legally registered vintage vehicle - when challenges arise say "this is my policy - see you in court."
(Disclaimer - this is not legal advise and I am not an attorney)
Matthew, maybe there is a solution - if you live nearby in a better area for Model T driving, then maybe your grandfather can deposit his T at your place, then he can come to you when he feels like it for some T touring together? ;-)
(Disclaimer: Sometimes this kind of situation can cause dispute later on among siblings and other relatives, so you may have to talk to the rest of the family first..)
I'm going to agree with Val. This is precisely why I would never - ever - even consider buying into an area with an HOA.
Roger, I'm actually in the process of perhaps acquiring his Roadster. you're right: Sibling/family issues arise though in that my aunt is in charge of his finances and doesn't want it handed down but sold when he passes to pay for expenses. My idea is give my grandfather some money down for his T, pay him monthly like a car payment until we reach an agreed amount. I live way out in the country. Nearest neighbor is 3/4 a mile away and it's all low traffic roads out where I am. The roadster would be in its glory undisturbed out there. Seems like money is always an issue though when it comes to family -_- and he doesn't want to make anyone angry. We'll see what happens I guess.
Your Aunt probably has an inflated value for the T. Better check that part out too! Remind your Dad that if he doesn't "fix it now" the car will likely leave the family, based on his Sister's wishes! (you must not be a favorite nephew, eh?)
I might add that the only reason I have Ma Green's Model A, is that she insisted that my dad do the paperwork to transfer the title when she was in the hospital in Yreka (a 45 minute drive away, back in the 1960s, one (around here, at least) did often make that long a trip). When she passed, all sorts of relatives that we never ever saw before showed up, and wanted the car--they were a bit disgruntled that it wasn't part of the estate. They did manage to wrangle away the arrowhead collection she had on display in her cafe, although they weren't really all hers!
Family can be petty sometimes. I'm definitely the favorite grandson. Only one who ever took real interests in the T hobby out of all his kids and grandkids. Heck 90% of my chassis you see in my profile is parts provided by him from his garage. He used to babysit me all the time. I'd fall asleep and be all over the roadster. When I was 9 he took me into the backyard where just a rusty T frame was. "I'm going to teach you how to put together a T." he said. And thus my affliction began. Today my chassis is nearly complete and running, but I find myself increasingly wanting a car that is mostly the original parts to that car and not a mixmatch.
Matthew - I usually get too "wordy", but not this time! I think that what David Dewey just said (above) boils down to one of my late Mom's favorite sayings,......."God is good, but get it in writing"!
As a 75 + T guy. I believe I would shake my cane at them and might add appropriate remarks. Have fun and be safe. HQAs have enough to deal with without coming after us old guys,
My HOW can tell me what I can around or outside my home and this is a good thing.
Keeps my junk pile reasonable
But what I can drive or what I put in my parking area it just has to meet state law to be legal
They said I could work in my garage if I did I had to have the door shut well I got on the HOT and got that changed met more niebor since then and it's becoming a neibor hood
Diving model my A is a big deal with traffic as bad as it is even on back roads of northwest,Ga. I live way out in the country. Nothing out her but cows and mountains but when I get on the only road to get to town I have people riding my bumper at 35_45 mph,while they text,talk,ebay,ect. Thanks God my HOA hasn't went that far yet saying I can't drive the T in my neighborhood most of my roads 20_25 mph. It's about 3 miles around my subdivision. So winter time it's easy to get a few miles in without negotiating the main road traffic.Tim