Is the 1909 brake quadrent different?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Is the 1909 brake quadrent different?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, February 02, 2016 - 10:51 pm:

Does someone have a photo or sketch of the early brake quadrant that is riveted on the frame?

Thank you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 07:40 am:

2 lever or three pedal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 08:45 am:

Three pedals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 10:37 am:

I can take a photo later today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:56 am:

Thanks Royce.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 11:39 am:

I am guessing that you want photos of the ratchet.

It looks largely like the later 1913 - 21 (maybe later) with four rivets, except that there are fewer teeth going forward, because the movement of the brake lever is limited by the transmission pan where the clutch cam contacts the pan. It appears to have the same four rivet pattern as later ratchets.

The cam is a unique part to early cars, with a round "dimple" where the adjuster bolt rests when the lever is fully forward.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 02:50 pm:

Thank you Royce for posting these two pictures of first 2500 Model T's ratchet and frame.

I would ask other readers to note that the top picture shows that this is a first 2500 car with a fish plate frame. The fish plate, and the rivets that attach the fish plate to the frame can be clearly seen.

The second thing I would draw other's attention to is to note how thin the steel in the frame rail is. If you were to put a micrometer on either to the top or bottom edges of the frames side rail you would measure that the steel is only 1/8 inch thick. Any other Model T frame rail made after car #2500 up until mid-1926 uses thicker 5/32 inch steel. 1/8 inch steel is not strong enough to support the bodies and greater load capacity of a Model T. The Ford engineers discovered this in late September 1908, and designed the fish plate to stiffen the side rails of the frame. They had 2500 frames on hand in July 1908, so they had 5000 fish plates made up so the 2500 frames could be used in production.

Very nice pictures.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

Trent,

Interesting to me is that the fish plates are clearanced around each of the existing rivets that were already installed. So your story is correct, they were obviously installed after the frame and all its attachments were assembled. The fish plates could go on without removing the brake ratchet that was already there.

The precision of the rivets is fairly amazing. Who ever installed them must have installed thousands of rivets prior to this set.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 06:42 pm:

I was interested in putting a quadrant on to a 1909 frame that I have. So what I'm getting from you the quadrant is similar or like the other four rivet quadrants?
Another question I have, before I get going on this should the brake lever be brass plated?
Also the part you squeeze to release the pawl and rod?

Thank you in advance


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 06:56 pm:

Herb, yes l that was brass plated originally. The reproduction ratchet would work fine, you would have some teeth that are never used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:06 pm:

Where would one send these parts to get them brass plated?
Also the cowl light brackets and spark and throttle rods.
Robbie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 11:15 pm:

This place is close to me.:


http://www.americanplatingcompany.com/commercial-plating/information-on-brass-pl ating-in-st-louis/

I don't know anything about them.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:34 am:

Herb, as far as I know there are a couple of other minor differences in the early handbrake assemblies.
The squeeze handle is attached to the lever with a flat headed pin which is held in place with a split pin. The same pin is used to connect the release rod to the squeeze handle.
At the other end of the handle, the rivet which attaches the pawl to the handle is countersunk into the pawl, rather than sitting proud.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 10:05 am:

Ah, yes. The fishplate frame.

Trent, I remember that seminar... Wasn't it called something like, "The 'Oh, sh*t' heard throughout Detroit" ?

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 10:18 am:

Henry Ford was testing the limits on how light a car could be. Unfortunately on production parts :-)
How thick are the N R S and the K frames that came before? Ok, I remember a similar problem with the first Model K's that had problems with a weak frame, but didn't need a reinforcement as bad as the first T frames.

My 1953 Dodge has a frame made from only 1/10" thick steel. It's enough since the frame members are fully boxed into a square section - and the section is much higher and wider than a Model T frame, so there are other ways to make a frame strong with thin steel, though not so easy when the design is completed as with the T - in that case going thicker was a better cure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 10:35 am:

Hi Keith,

That is a little stronger title than I actually used for the presentation. I called it "The Oops Heard in 3 States and Canada".

This is an organization with strong family element to it. I have to be careful what I say and write. So I do a little bit of self editing. Sometime I will have to tell you the story of the time Henry Ford sent Jim Purdie out to find Ed Huff. It is a colorful story, but I left it out of the Huff article. It really is not fit for a family based magazine.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 11:02 am:

One more item of interest. The flipper part of the hand brake was shaped differently on the 09-12 and perhaps later models. Along with the flat headed pins, the shape of the handle, or flipper was different. I question whether the flipper on Royce's 09 is the correct one since it appears to me to be the later style.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 07:27 am:

Gents

Don't forget that the fish plate frames were not only were thin, but the radius of the corners of the "U" section were a lot squarer than the later thicker frames.

Also the fish plates were added after the Handbrake quadrant had been fitted (holes around rivets), but before the running boards brackets were fitted (rivets were attached to the fish plates)

The early frames had different front brackets where the front cross member mounted (not "L" shaped"). Don't think this went for long.

The rear corner brackets were virtually a single bend, unlike the 3 sided later ones and only attached to the top of the frame rail and rear cross member and not the side of the frame rail.

Here is a photo my old frame showing a rear bracket with the single bend and only 2 mounting sides. These early frames were fragile as you can tell by the welding



Hard to photograph, but here is a photo of the tight radius squarer corners.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 04:34 pm:

Thank you Mark H!


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration