Flywheel Balance 2

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Flywheel Balance 2
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 09:15 am:

I am in the process of adding slingers to a flywheel which has the magnets removed, and at this point I am wondering about the balance. This flywheel/transmission has been run previously without any noticeable problems, but having read the article by Steve Jelf, I am having second thoughts. Steve’s article, 10 January, 2016:
http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=599638&post=802247
In reviewing several flywheels it appears that Ford balanced the flywheel assembly in two stages….first without magnets, then a second with magnets. Why I say this is because there are balancing holes on the flywheel where magnets, if installed, would cover the holes. I find this on several flywheels. Once magnets are installed, the assembly is balanced again resulting in balancing holes added more to the periphery of the flywheel.
I hypothesize that if one were to remove the magnets, then the latter holes could be refilled with comparable weight, thus restoring the original balance of the wheel.
Has anyone checked flywheel balance after removing magnets?

flywheel 4
This is the flywheel that I am working on. Notice the 3 large balancing holes at 5 O'Clock...the center one of which would be under the magnets. There is an array of smaller balancing holes at the periphery. However one at 2 O'Clock appears to interfere with a magnet, if installed. ??
flywheel 2
This photo taken from a slinger document. Notice the large balancing hole at 12 O'Clock....and no peripheral balancing holes. Can presume that all previous magnets did not affect balance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 10:11 am:

From what I have seen, the large holes are FORD. Smaller holes at the edge are aftermarket. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 10:20 am:

How fast are you planning to drive ?, with the transmission and triple gears all whirling around you won't notice any balance issues, you will lose low end torque without the magnets, I have a 26 coupe with slingers and a 24 Fordor with the magnets and it is a better hill climber than the coupe.
Just my experience.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson - Omaha NE on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 11:00 am:

I had my flywheel balanced, it was cheap. Just like you I have no magnets, and slingers. I had a new ring gear on the flywheel also. I did not peen over any of the ring gear bolts when I took it to the machine shop. It was so close to perfect as it was, the machinist removed one ring gear bolt and put a washer under it to make it perfect. I brought it home, peened the ring gear bolts and installed it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 11:23 am:

There shouldn't be ANY balancing holes drilled in the "rim" of the flywheel. The rim of a cast iron flywheel is a structural part and is potentially under a great deal of strain at speed.

I've seen a couple T flywheels that have been balanced on modern balancing equipment that had balancing holes drilled in the edge of the flywheel. That is because many "race car shops" drill balance holes into crankshafts that way and when they do a T flywheel, they are either lazy or don't know any better.

There is a section in "Machinery's Handbook" that discusses proper places to remove material from various flywheel types.

There is NO WAY I would EVER drill balancing holes in a cast iron flywheel rim... (But just because it is contrary to proper engineering, doesn't necessarily mean you will ever have a problem).

Does anyone here know of any exploded flywheels happening in T's? I know one happened on the Montana 500 a couple years ago but I don't know the details.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 12:09 pm:

Lots of them are factory balanced by Ford as in the first photo. The early ones were not balanced, I think it was in the starter era (maybe 1919) when Ford stated doing it. Those holes will not actually interfere with installing the magnets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 12:48 pm:

According to Ford Methods and the Ford Shops, 1914-15, page 279 lists the final stages of flywheel mfg. After drill and tapping holes, Operation #16 Balance on Rockford Tool Company's balancing machine. There isn't detail on this machine, only that in 1915 Ford balanced flywheels as made, prior to magnet install.



Less detail on the assembly line for the magnets, just mostly mentions of time saved in fitting parts on the flywheel, could be the assembly got no further balancing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 01:25 pm:

And I guess I need to clarify my statement.

Referring to the photo at the top of the page:

The balancing holes drilled in the "body" of that flywheel at the 5 o'clock position are in the correct area to make balance adjustments to a cast iron flywheel and is also the area that Ford specified any balancing "holes" to be made.

The balancing holes at the 12 o'clock position have been drilled into the "rim" of the flywheel.

Holes in the body of an iron flywheel are okay. Additional holes in the rim significantly weaken the flywheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 01:28 pm:

In 50 some years, I have never seen a T Flywheel crack on the out side diameter.

The cracks that I have always seen, were coming off the triple gear pin holes, in different directions.

Also, we have always drilled to lighten flywheels on the periphery of the flywheel for weight removal.

The only exception would be, if the hole had to be drilled at the center of the brass clamp screw, then instead of say removing 10 grams from that spot, you remove 5 grams on each side of the brass screw.

Model A Fords were all drilled for balance on the periphery also.

A flywheel out of balance is always noticeable, if not to the driver, it always is to the bearings.

Running Model T's with out the Magnets has always been a plus for me. Those saying you loose hill climbing torque because of it, have never ridden behind one of my engines.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak, Chicago, IL area on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 01:54 pm:

Just wondering, but if you get a flywheel with slingers all nice and balanced, won't the presence of the oil on the slingers, when it is actually in use, make the setup unbalanced again? Assuming the slinger picks up a load of oil at one point of its rotation, and proceeds to sling it as it revolves, by the time it gets to the other side, is it not lighter?

Or is it negligible?

Not a mechanic, here, but just wondering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 02:20 pm:

O.D. holes Do Not weaken a flywheel.

The way I look at it is that when the flywheels were balanced and the holes were drilled, and when the flywheel was on the machine, it laid on its side to balance, either by bubble, or spun, and not like we do them now, and being as crude as it was, it wouldn't made much sense to turn the flywheel.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 02:23 pm:

I don't think there is anything to worry about Bob.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 03:27 pm:

I would have the crank flywheel and triple gears balanced together on a computer balancing machine instead of static balancing, you do not bubble balance the tires on you car any more so why would you balance some thing that spins that fast on knife edges? Just my thoughts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 06:40 pm:

And here is a photo of typical large Ford balance holes, ah one or ah two, or ah three ! :-)




Now for real radical, the inside face of this flywheel got the real deal.....lots of holes and holes and more holes!!! Yipes ! Some break through to the other side.




Maybe a racer? Or maybe someone loved drilling cast iron or needed a lot of cast iron dust for additive to a batch of gunpowder :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 07:26 pm:

Oops, wrong side! Drill, Drill; Oops too much! Drill, Drill--Dang! Wrong side again! Drill, Drill, Ooops. . . .

Either that or it's a "Lightened" flywheel!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 07:31 pm:

This seems to say that Ford just balanced the flywheel with the large holes. Those holes on the periphery must be *after the fact* as was mentioned. Conclusion is that it was assumed that the magnets were uniform enough in weight that further balancing of the assembly was not necessary...or done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Wednesday, February 03, 2016 - 07:41 pm:

"Quote" There shouldn't be ANY balancing holes drilled in the "rim" of the flywheel. The rim of a cast iron flywheel is a structural part and is potentially under a great deal of strain at speed.

I've seen a couple T flywheels that have been balanced on modern balancing equipment that had balancing holes drilled in the edge of the flywheel. That is because many "race car shops" drill balance holes into crankshafts that way and when they do a T flywheel, they are either lazy or don't know any better.


Well after reading this I guess you better dig up Henry and tell him he did wrong in balancing every flywheel since the Model T. As all Model A's V8's and all new engines are drilled on the periphery.
Every aftermarket balancing machine since the 1940's has been made to drill vertical rather than horizontal as the poster is mentioning. I guess I was too Lazy to know better when we purchased a $30 k machine to do the work which balances down to hundredths of a gram .

I'm sorry but ask any machine shop how they balance and all will respond in the same fashion. If they have a balancing machine the drill will be vertical.
http://www.jandm-machine.com/balancing.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 01:35 am:

Adam, to my knowledge, no flywheel has ever blown up on the Montana 500. I know of a couple that have lost magnets, but no exploding flywheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:30 am:

Unbalance is created by a difference between the center of rotation and center of mass. Making correction close to the center of rotation is usually ineffective on something such as a flywheel. If I remember correctly vibration is directly related to the residual unbalance and the RPM. I'm pretty skeptical that the RPM of a Model T engine will grenade the flywheel with balancing holes at it's periphery. Just an opinion and take is as such.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 01:53 pm:

Royce,
Here is a photo of your flywheel from another thread. There appear to be a series of new balancing holes in addition to the Ford hole.
What is happening??
flywheel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 04:59 am:

Royce,
I went through some of the veteran flywheels I have changed out for starters, they do show the normal drillings for a Ford factory balancing, could be just another one of those Canadian things done first if the USA ones didn't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 08:36 am:

John,

Someone balanced it - likely Ford.

Frank,

The other engine that I recently disassembled was a mostly untouched 1914 Canadian unit, with a serial number dating to early January 1914, and a January 1914 casting date on the block. There is apparently factory balancing on that non - starter flywheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 09:50 am:

Hard to determine exactly from your photo Royce but it appears that the center & lower right "arrows" are pointing to the notches for the triple gear pin access for removal - not for balancing ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 09:54 am:

Ah, you are right Steve.

Anyway, the flywheel was balanced, and appears to have never been apart previously since new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 05:29 pm:

John, if you want to balance your flywheel I have a knife edge balance tool from the Ron Brown, Sr. collection available for less than it would cost to have it done at your local shop. It will also balance transmission drums with the right mandrels. I once static balanced a T flywheel and then sent it out to be dynamically balanced. They only drilled two 1/4" holes maybe 1/8" deep. A negligible amount given the T's RPM range and weight. Static balance works well for model T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 01:08 pm:

Erik,
Thanks, but I am not much interested in balancing the flywheel...instead I am trying to understand what Ford did and what the impact is of removing the magnets. I see a variety of balance marks (holes) on various flywheels, all of which seem to be original and unmolested. There just seems to be too much inconsistency.


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