Transmission removal

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Transmission removal
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:24 pm:

Well, I finally bit the bullet and decided to replace my chewed up starter ring gear while she is garaged for the winter. Thank's to this forum and a couple of books I was able to safely remove the engine by myself yesterday without too much of a problem using a heavy duty strap and small chain fall hanging off of a rafter. I built a stand out of 2x4's so I could work on it. I'll post some photos and see if anyone has any advice as I go along. I am going to look in the manual, but I was wondering if anyone had an easy way of getting to the flywheel ring as it doesn't look like there is room to get it out of the pan?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:26 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:33 pm:

Also noticed that some of the insulation is gone from a couple of the mag coils from something hitting it. any idea what could have caused this and how to recover them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:35 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:37 pm:

Somebody tried to remove starter without removing the Bendix first!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 07:52 pm:

If you thoroughly clean the magneto coils you might be able to seal them with lots of varnish. I did that on the coils on my coupe back in the 70s, before I knew better, and it is still there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 08:00 pm:

You have to pull the pan to get it apart. If you don't have it I suggest getting the transmission book. Unless the coil plate has been done in the last few years, it's time to get a rebuilt one. There is a lot more to JUST replacing the ring gear to this job and does require knowing the steps. At the minimum you will need new screws for the ring gear, ring gear, rebuilt coil plate and some gaskets (you don't need the whole set). The cloth tape used on the coils is coming apart from age and will just be problem down the road as if comes off and plugs the oil line etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:02 pm:

might have found the culprit, just noticed this loose screw! I am waiting for the transmission book to arrive. Do I have to remove the whole pan?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:07 pm:

I covered those bare spots with a layer of 5-Minute epoxy on several engines with no problems.

You have to check that none of the coils are shorted first or you are wasting your time.

Given the amount of work involved and the price of a good rebuilt coil ring, you might better put the new one in now.

I failed my first job by not realizing how important it was to get that spacing at .025 to .030 all around, with the engine standing on end and nose down.

If you have a fully charged set of magnets, the Mag can work at .040 all around, but it is difficult to get a set of magnets fully charged.

The minimum magnet charge for an operational Mag is 2 pounds, but that is not nearly as good as they get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:09 pm:

If you're going to do it right, yes. You'll need the transmission and flywheel out of the way to get to the coil ring and fix or replace it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:14 pm:

The pan must come off to get to the bolts that hold the flywheel & transmission on. Stand the motor on it's nose before removing the flywheel and transmission assembly. Removing the ring gear involves the screws that hold the magnets as they also hold the gear on. Reassembly will require new screws and checking to make sure the heights of the magnet keepers are uniform. I'd replace the mag ring with a rebuilt one, it's a pain to patch it and find that it needs to come back out for more work. Get the books and read up before you go much further. Then if you still have questions, please ask away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:16 pm:

This is beginning to look a little more difficult than I figured it was going to be!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:24 pm:

Looks like I am going to have to figure out a different set up for a stand, the one I made has it sitting on the pan!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 04, 2016 - 09:25 pm:

Yes, but it ain't brain surgery. It will just take longer than you thought. Follow the books and ask here and you'll get through it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 12:21 am:

she always seemed to run better when I switched to mag so I think it was working ok, but I guess I'll have to wait and see what's there when I break it down. any idea's on a stand I could make that would make the process a little easier? is there an easy way to stand it on it's nose to remove the transmission parts? this sucker weighs as much as I do so I was careful moving it using a strap and small hoist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 03:40 am:




I made the adapter adjustable so the center of gravity can be between 2 & 3 with the transmission off and at 4 with the transmission on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 06:38 am:

Get the pan off. For a couple hundred bucks you can get a rebuilt coil ring from Mark Fleischacker at Total Recoil. Might as well check your magnets while you're at it. Then comes the fun of shimming the coil ring to get the correct setting. Take your time, count on it being an exercise in frustration. But if you do it correctly, you're set for the duration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 10:56 am:

has anyone built a wooden stand to hold it in the nose down position?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 10:59 am:

This is the last time that I will be removing an engine from anything so I don't want to buy a stand and have it sitting around my 1 car garage forever if I don't have to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 11:34 am:

I wish I had taken a picture of it. I made a stand out of 2x4's which I bolted on the manifold studs and water inlet bolts. I could turn the engine crankcase up and work on the bearings. It was built in such a way that you could flip it up on the front end with the crankshaft suspended and so get to the transmission and flywheel.

I now have an engine stand which Lee Pierce loaned me permanently so I can do it like Steve does now.

If you don't have them I would recommend 3 books the club has to offer. Transmission, Engine, and Electrical system.

The Electrical book even gives instructions for rewinding the magneto coils, which I did on 3 magnetos. Two of which have been used in two of my Model T's.

I would recommend that you restore the magneto either by rewinding it or buying a rewound one. Also since you are removing the keepers from the magnets to replace the starter ring, that you also remove the magnets and test them for cracks. Then recharge the magnets. The magnetic poles alternate around the flywheel with north to north and south to south, so be sure to use a compass to determine the poles of the magnets and charge them in the right direction. Then when you assemble everything check the height of the magnets. This is done with a tool as described in the book. Hopefully someone in your local club has access to the tool. Next you install everything and check the clearances between the magnets and the coils. They should be at least 25 thousandths and no more than 40 thousandths. They should be as nearly as you can get to the same clearance all the way around.

Anyway, it is difficult to get to the magneto, so well worth the extra work to be sure it is in good condition while you have everything apart.

It is also good to at least inspect the engine and transmission, perhaps take off the engine bearing caps to inspect the babbit and make adjustments while it is apart. Those things are easier with the engine apart than later. Be sure to check the endplay in the crankshaft too.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 11:40 am:

An engine stand is by far the best, safest, and easiest way. But if that option is off the table, build/modify your wood stand so that the engine can be set on it upside down, resting on the cylinder head only. Make sure you have drained all the oil of course. Turn the whole assembly upside down, set the head on the stand, and suspend the weight of the flywheel/tranny in your chain hoist and nylon straps or the whole lot will fall off your stand. Once all is perfectly AND SAFELY secured, take the pan off, then you will be able to unbolt the flywheel/tranny and set it on your bench. This is all very cumbersome and you will probably wish that you had gone in for the engine stand. You can always sell it on ebay after you are done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 11:57 am:

RE: my previous post, in the upside down position it might be better to have built a separate independent wood stand to support the flywheel/tranny weight from below rather than suspending it from the hoist. When upside down the pan will probably be in the way of the slings. You will still want to sling the flywheel/tranny from your hoist after you get the pan off but before you remove the flywheel/tranny or it will fall of its stand when you take the crank flange bolts out. Or if you have two strong helpers they can hold onto it while you remove the bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 03:17 pm:

I agree with Richard. If there's no engine stand you can borrow, buy or make one and sell it when you're done.

Norm is exactly correct. You want those three books.


If you don't have the special tool available for checking magnet height, you can measure them this way.




There are various ways of adjusting magnet height. I made shims to put under the spacers. All the magnets ended up within .005" of the same height. That's more than good enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:30 pm:

I hoisted the engine off of the pan and then laid it on it's side to remove the transmission. I now have the transmission on a table and hammered the ring gear off. I also removed the coil ring ( a bunch of shims fell out) I am still waiting for the transmission book and ring gear to arrive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:31 pm:

Measure the magnet heights first and you will find them up to .025 difference between the thickest and thinest magnet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:33 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:35 pm:



I found this little pin from the Bendix and what looks like a ring gear tooth in the pan when I cleaned it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:44 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 04:52 pm:

Check end play on that crank shaft. It may be more than 30 thousands play.

Steven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 05:06 pm:

When you get ready to put things together, the engine should be nose down with the crankshaft free to slide to the front of the engine. That will take up any end play and move the flywheel closest to the magneto. That is important in measuring the clearance of the magnets to the coils. The shims go between the coils and the block. They move the coils closer to the magnets. If you put more shims at the top two bolts, you will move the top of the ring toward the magnets and the bottom farther away from the magnets. Same by putting more on one side than the other. So you will need to experiment with the shims to get the clearance equal all the way around. Then rotate the crankshaft and check each magnet against each coil until you get all the way around.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 05:58 pm:

OK Thank's. I came across something on Lang's site about having the coil ring shaved for an extra 60 dollars, If I decide to spring for the refurbished coil ring for 200 bucks, is the 60 dollar "shave" worth it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

how do I check the babbit and "end play?"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 06:51 pm:

To check end play, grab your crank flange and pull it as far rearward as you can. Then stick feeler gauges between the crank flange and the thrust babbitt surface on the rear main cap until you find the one that fills the gap and that will be your end play.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 08:38 pm:

James, I didn't see your post before I took the magnets and spacers off to clean, can I still measure them? also ,how can I tell if the magnets have enough charge?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 09:25 pm:

Dennis, if the magnets are strong enough you should be able to pick up a cast iron piston with them.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 09:46 pm:


If you don't happen to have a cast iron piston (two pounds) to test your magnets, a spindle (2.2 pounds) will do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 09:49 pm:

how much does one weigh? and will all of the magnets be about the same strength?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, February 05, 2016 - 10:26 pm:

They will after you charge them. If any are weak, zap them a few more times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:01 am:

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do I know if they need a charge or not? is there some kind of measurement?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:43 am:

If they will not hold a two pound weight then they need charged. Note that the weight is not hung across the legs of a single magnet. It is hung off the end of the two legs of adjacent magnets (where they meet at the contact plate, brass screw, and spool). It looks like you have already taken the magnets off the flywheel, so hopefully you placed them in the exact same arrangement on your bench as they were on the flywheel, because it is imperative that each pair of adjacent legs are of the same pole (north next to north, and south next to south).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:49 am:

Yes, each magnet should hold an iron piston which weighs about two pounds.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 03:04 am:

This old post http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/526032.html?1426706714 states a recharged magnet measured 345 gauss.

This post http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/453316.html?1403195274 shows an inexpensive gauss gauge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 09:53 am:

I check magnets by picking up a big Crescent Wrench after charging them. The wrench is about 4 pounds. I don't know how you would test picking something up with two adjacent magnets - that seems odd to me.

Here's how I recharged my magnets last month:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/600997.html?1452448848


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 10:39 am:

"I also removed the coil ring (a bunch of shims fell out)"

I hope you kept track of which shims were in which location.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 11:09 am:

He's getting a new mag ring and has taken the magnets off the flywheel. It doesn't matter where the old shims where because he will have to readjust everything anyway.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:37 pm:

Royce, I like that recharging setup in your thread. How many 12V batteries did you use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:47 pm:

Thank's for the advice, I have some questions if anyone can answer. 1. is my coil ring salvageable or is it a must that I order a new one?
2. there is a bunch of "gunk" coating the magnets and the parts, what is the best way to clean everything besides blasting?
3. the magnets are too weak to hold a foot long crescent wrench, does anyone have experience recharging with a 12 volt battery charger? 4. should I remove the caps to check babbit or is that going to mess something up as far as tolerances go?
thank's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 12:50 pm:

PS, I already messed up by removing the magnets and putting them in a box to clean without maintaining what order they were in but from doing some reading I should be ok using a compass?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 01:06 pm:

Would not be the first time. Just remember, they go NN SS NN etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 01:25 pm:

Dennis,
RE: removing the caps. It will only cause problems if you do with them what you did to the magnets! Caps have to go back where they were, and in the same orientation that they were in, you can't usually turn them around successfully.
I would strongly suggest you read up on the T engine before going farther; either the service bulletins reprint, or the club booklets, and the forum archives. While similar to other car engines, the T engine has its own peculiarities.
as for cleaning the magnets, etc. in the old days we'd use a parts washer, but Stoddard's solvent has side effects on the human brain that weren't known about then (the holes in my memory are apparently one of them--it's called "Long Term Solvent Exposure Disorder"); so today, you'd probably use one of the citrus cleaners, or the purple stuff (until we find out what's bad about them) and be prepared to have a mess on your hands--don't do this in the kitchen sink! (Gee, how'd I know not to do that?? Don't ask!! :-))
However, once the process is over, it sure makes the parts nice to work with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 02:53 pm:

1 Yes, probably. The Electrical System will tell you how to test it and how to fix it. After you read about it, you can decide whether you want to do the job yourself or send your ring to Mark as a core.

2 The products david mentioned are OK, and lacquer thinner is a good cleaner for an oil-based mess.

3 You want more than twelve volts. I borrowed batteries from a tractor, a lawnmower, and a Suburban. You connect them in series for 36 volts.

4 What David said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, February 06, 2016 - 03:03 pm:

Since you have it apart, don't cut corners. Nothing more disheartening than something not functioning after all that hard work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 01:28 am:

well, I decided to order the refurbished mag ring and recharged magnets along with the electrical book and assorted gaskets etc. ( I may have to take a loan out and get my wife some stronger blood pressure pills though!) the tranny book and the new ring gear arrived today. While waiting for the order I'll try checking the endplay, babbit, and try cleaning things up a bit as well as figuring out building a "nose down" stand to assemble it all in. The drums and clutch appear to be ok, so I won't mess with them at this point.
Thank's for all of the input, it is much appreciated! I spent a lot of years investigating murders as a detective with the Police dept before retiring and so far, tearing apart this engine has been far more scarier to me than all of that!!!!! LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 01:54 am:

well, I decided to order the refurbished mag ring and recharged magnets along with the electrical book and assorted gaskets etc. ( I may have to take a loan out and get my wife some stronger blood pressure pills though!) the tranny book and the new ring gear arrived today. While waiting for the order I'll try checking the endplay, babbit, and try cleaning things up a bit as well as figuring out building a "nose down" stand to assemble it all in. The drums and clutch appear to be ok, so I won't mess with them at this point.
Thank's for all of the input, it is much appreciated! I spent a lot of years investigating murders as a detective with the Police dept before retiring and so far, tearing apart this engine has been far more scarier to me than all of that!!!!! LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 08:40 am:

Richard - one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 09:04 am:

Dennis, Just like police work, doing this correctly and right yields the best results. Real frustration is having to re-do a job you thought you had completed because you cut corners to save a couple of bucks and now have to lay out more to get the job done correctly. Learned that lesson the hard way. Now if I don't have the ready cash and time to do the job right, I wait until I do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 11:59 am:

"there is a bunch of "gunk" coating the magnets and the parts, what is the best way to clean everything"

Diesel fuel works pretty good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 05:31 pm:

Please excuse the double post, don't know what happened there!
I removed one of the caps and flipped it over, this is the end cap near the back of the engine,


is it ok, or bad?
also, is there an easier way to get the square bolts off of the other caps? they are torqued on pretty good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 06:39 pm:

I used a Gator Grip universal socket for the square bolts and it worked well just make sure it gets a full swallow. Sears has them and maybe Home Depot. I think an 8-point socket will work but they are hard to find if you don't have one already.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 09:42 pm:

does anyone know if there is a special tool for them? I can't get them off with an open end wrench and I don't want to mess them up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 09:54 am:

Ford made "special" tools for most removal operations - the wrench in question has a square opening for the main bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 11:53 am:

I just took a closer look and realized that the square headed bolts are long with normal castellated nuts on the other end, shouldn't be a problem taking them off, at first it looked like they were threaded into the block! Can anyone tell me if the babbit is ok on the rear one that I have apart and where do I measure for end play?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 02:06 pm:

It can be very difficult/impossible to judge babbitt visually. If it looks bad, it probably is bad. But if it looks good, it may still be worn out of spec. You cannot see thousandths with the eye. The only purely correct way is to Plastigage but that is a pretty advanced technique you would want to read up on alot before doing. A less accurate but easier way is to put the cap back on and torque it down properly. Then for each main bearing grab the web end of the crankshaft on each side and try to wriggle the journal in the bearing. If you feel slop, its worn. It takes some experience to know how much slop is too much. If you can barely feel it with alot of concentration it is probably OK. If it is fairly easy to feel the slop, even though its small its probably worn. If worn you take one of the shims from each side of the cap out, make it up again and try to wriggle it again. Repeat until the slop is gone. It is important that you always take one shim off of each side. If you take a mismatched amount of shims off the sides of each cap it is a bad thing. Once you do all mains, the wriggles should be gone but you should still be able to turn the crankshaft easily.

For end up play, have all caps on, pull the crankshaft flange as far rearward as possible, then measure between the flange face and rear main cap with feeler gauges.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 02:23 pm:

... end play, not end up play... Dang spell checker


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 02:45 pm:

Curious...what is so *advanced* about Plastigage? Seems straight forward to me. Been using it forever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 03:12 pm:

Plastigage works fine with a freshly bored set of bearings and a freshly turned crank. In a used T motor it does not give you very good information. The crankshaft won't wear evenly, nor will the bearing.

Plastgage is just the thing for checking fit of freshly restored bearings and cranks. Otherwise, not too useful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 03:32 pm:

Good point by Royce, and especially true if only gauging the cap side of the worn bearing. Clearance could be different on the other side, journals may be worn/tapered etc, and since this is Dennis' first deep surgery and he's alone doing it, I wouldn't recommend he take the crankshaft out unless he finds something obviously amiss. Some previous advice on this thread was to not go deeper until he thoroughly reads up on some intimate details about the engine/procedures, etc. and I think that is wise advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 05:28 pm:

I agree with that - you should not be disturbing the main bearing caps when the whole reason the engine is being worked on is to replace the ring gear. You might check crankshaft end play.

If the engine was making good power and not knocking then leave it alone until it needs work. Then do everything, and do it right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 06:07 pm:

I'm glad someone (several) are showing some sense and saying to leave *it* alone. I was expecting to hear "while you have it out do a complete rebuild" Model Ts are very forgiving and will perform well under adverse conditions.
I still favor Plastigage...just need to use more of it in increments on the long main bearings...and use good judgment


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 06:49 pm:

Thank you all for the advice, The car was running good (a little better on mag than on bat, ie; when I switched to mag it would give me a couple of extra miles per hour and you could almost feel a "boost") but the car was hard to start when cold and with the ring gear chewed up, I could not use the starter. I have a messed up shoulder, which made it difficult to hand crank so I decided while she was laid up for the winter to try and replace the ring gear and one dark and gloomy day in Buffalo NY, I was standing out in my heated garage "puttering" around when I began removing stuff to get at the ring gear and "eureka!!!!" here I am, up to my elbows and eyelids in engine parts! I know my way around cars pretty good, just not "model T's, hence the reason for all of these silly questions!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 11:25 am:

""I think an 8-point socket will work but they are hard to find if you don't have one already.""

Here's a couple on Amazon, reasonably priced:

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-J5418S-2-Inch-Socket-16-Inch/dp/B002FCGD6G/ref=sr_ 1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1455034785&sr=8-9&keywords=8+point+9%2F16%22+socket

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-J7418S-2-Inch-Impact-16-Inch/dp/B002FCJDSG/ref=sr_ 1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1455034785&sr=8-10&keywords=8+point+9%2F16%22+socket


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson - Omaha NE on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 11:42 am:

Little late in the discussion for this, but I bought a nice used engine stand on Craigslist for $25. It was even close to my neighborhood. It sure makes the job a lot easier when you can flip the engine over when you need to, and roll the whole thing out of the way if you need to.
I did not want to store it so I put it back on Craigslist when I was done with it. I ask $30 so I could be talked down to $25. Sold it in one day for $30


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:28 pm:

Ken, I actually found the square sockets at sears online, pretty cheap too, about 8 bucks and they come in 1/2, 9/16, and 3/4, the book says those bolts are 9/16, but I decided (based on the above advice), not to go any further with tearing it down than I already have and just clean and inspect things as I go along while waiting for the mag parts to arrive, I'm already in deeper than I thought I would be, but am "in general" enjoying the challenge! thank's for the links. I also stopped at sears to see if they had the square sockets available in store, they didn't but they did have what's called a "universal" socket set for 13 bucks that claims it will work on all different bolt head configurations so I picked them up, they look like they would do the job if need be. I would have only needed them for the center cap as I found the others had nuts on them that could be removed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:40 pm:

Doug, people in WNY apparently have really high quality used stuff because I have been scouring craigslist but could buy a brand new one from HF for much less than the ones I've seen!!!!LOL
I know it would have been much easier with one and in retrospect would have been worth it, but I have been just taking my time and it is working out. One of the problems I had was that a cheap stand from HF is only 45 bucks, and just a simple piece of steel adaptor was 56 bucks plus shipping from the online parts dealers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

still waiting for the order to be shipped, don't know why they are taking so long to fill it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Miller on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 10:12 pm:

I saw several mention measuring the crankshaft end play. What is the acceptable end play range?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 10:21 pm:

The MTFCA engine book says no more than .007". The more the crankshaft can slide back, the weaker the magneto becomes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 10:23 pm:

Ford power plant checking standards lists,
rear main bearing cap length is worn .012, replace.
But if worn all the one way to give you more mag clearance, I think you can allow even more as the magneto still can work fine around the .040 gap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Miller on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 11:16 pm:

Thanks. Mine needs to be fixed, I was getting .018.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 02:24 am:

Dennis; Any updates?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 08:24 am:

Timothy: If your rear main bearing is fine radially after adjusting the shims, the axial play can be fixed by soldering on some babbitt to the worn flange and file it smooth (and square)

Here's an article on the method: http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/Excessive%20Crankshaft%20Endplay%20Repair.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 04:15 pm:

Timothy,

If your T is running fine and your magneto is working well, I wouldn't be concerned about that end play. Don't fix it because it's not ideal, fix it when your T starts to act up because of it or when you need to tear into for some other reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 04:43 pm:

The wear on the main bearings is mostly on the caps because of the weight of the crankshaft and the pistons also push down on the crankshaft. However, sometimes the center main will wear on the block side because if the rear of the transmission sags it will push up toward the center of the crankshaft. It is very important to align the crankcase before it is installed, and also check for wear on the 4th main(rear bearing of the transmission) When you install the crankcase turn the engine nose down before you tighten the bolts. Put the 4th main in place and start the two bolts into the crankcase. The 4th main should be easy to slide in and out if everything is in proper alignment. Also install the hogs head the same way and tighten the bolts evenly. When all is tight, the 4th main should still slide in and out easily.

The wear on the rod bearings is mostly on the rods, not the caps, so you need to inspect the upper part of the rod bearings. Both mains and rods shims should be removed until the crank will not turn, then add shims until the crank can be turned. At this point, you can use plastigauge. It should be between 1.5 thousandths and 2 thousandths. If less than 1.5 add a shim, and test again. If over 2 remove a shim. Do this one bearing at a time and then when all are adjusted, you can tighten the caps and place the cotter pins.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Miller on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 04:44 pm:

Yes. I found the endplay when I opened it up when I had other problems. A few of the magnet holding plates came off and tore up some off the magneto coils. I somewhat suspect the end play allowed the magnets to hit the magneto. My thirteen year old son are restoring the car. So this another learning experience. At least we got to drive once before this happened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 01:07 pm:

Timothy,

Understood. Glad to hear it's a father & son project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 01:24 am:

well, It took longer than I thought due to some unrelated business that I had to take care of but I now have everything back together and the engine is back in the car, I haven't tried starting it yet because I wanted to reconvert it back to 6 volts before I did. I think the hardest part of all of this was trying to get the magneto gap equal all around with the shims, that was a real pup and I am still crossing my fingers that it will be ok. I replaced the ring gear,the coil ring,brass screws,gaskets, and recharged each magnet individually. It took awhile to locate a 6 volt battery at a decent price locally (90 bucks) and I am in the process of installing a new wiring harness and terminal block. I should be able to try and start her up in a couple of days if all goes well, I also replaced the manifold gaskets and the carb float needle valve and seat. thank's for all of your help and patience!


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