Alignment of Front Axle and Wheels

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Alignment of Front Axle and Wheels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Niels Andersen on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 03:55 am:

In the Model T Service Manual page 45 step 146 onwards this topic is dealt with including measurements and method to correct front axle tilt pertaining to the T model prior to the improved car of 1926-27.
Do these measurements also apply to the 26/27 model, and more specifically to the European front axle set up shown here:

26-27 European Front Axle Assembly


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 04:05 am:

Now that's different, an upper wishbone design had it's problems in the veteran T's, question is why revert back to something similar?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 04:17 am:

Frank, it was brought to light by the same crew who reverted to LHD because they couldn't figure out how to get the steering column past the generator when electrics were introduced. So they have history with retro fits.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 11:47 am:

For '26-'27 the camber was changed from 3" to 1&15/16". See page 377 of the Service Bulletins Essentials book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Conklin on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 04:13 pm:

Note the shape of the spindles, more drop than the US 26-27 spindles. This would effect the force applied to the wishbone. Also the mounting is different than the early top mounted wish bones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 05:55 pm:

Not only are the spindles different as Donald said, the yokes for the spindles are much different than our T's. That will also affect the force on the wishbone. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 06:02 pm:

Neils,

I would recommend contacting the Model T Ford Registry of Great Britain at: http://www.modeltregister.co.uk/ and ask them the question. They should be the experts or at least have the service bulletin that would note a change if one was needed. The UK front axle was designed by them and “IF” it has a special setting, I would suspect that it was documented. I.e. they used the standard front axle 1911-1923ish before the drop frame chassis was introduced for the 1924 model year cars. I would GUESS that the camber would be the same as the improved USA cars – but that is a guess and they would know. Also please let us know what you find out.

Frank – Ref page 156 “The English Model T Ford Book” which says, “To maintain adequate clearance at the front axle, the front radius rod mounting was moved from below to above the axle beam.” Note that the 1926 USA & Canada chassis lowered the car by 1 1/2 inches (ref: page 383 McCalley “Model T Ford”). But the wishbone was only 1/2 inch lower as the front spindles lowered it that much and the curve in the front spring gave them the other 1 inch of lowering. But on the British Drop Frame set up the front spindle was off set substantially more that the 1926-27 USA style and the ends of the axle turned up giving approximately a 3 inch drop (Page 156 English Ford Book).

Note it is easy for me to get the words mixed up so I have included an illustration. Ken is correct that the distance changed from 3" for the old 1909-1925 to 1&15/16" for the USA 1926-27 cars for the difference between the wheels measured at C & D below:





Below was not asked for but while I have the folder open I believe it is more important than the camber.







Note the caster is the one that can get you in a ditch. You want a T (also N,R,S, & SR) to have positive caster when going forward in the car. And that is also why you want to back up slowly in a T. When it is going backwards the effect is it has negative caster and the wheels will very easily go full left or full right. I've seen that and it is NOT fun to watch from the passenger seat.

I would guess but I do NOT know, that the caster on the English Drop frame front axle would be established by the spring perches. That is supported by the fact that there was a right 3818DF and a left 3819DF spring perch (ref page 155 "The English Model T Ford.")

The first photo in the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80333.html shows what happens when the spring perches are installed incorrectly on a USA car. Same issue at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/27467.html but not as easy to see photo.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

For a good description of the Drop Frame cars please see the discussion at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/375948.html?1376910635 There is a sketch showing the 3 inch drop the parts make.

The photo below shows a Drop Framed front axle. In one case with the 1926-27 USA style spindle that was also used by England and in the other case the 1924-1925 Drop Frame spindle.



Note the Drop Framed parts were used in other locations (Denmark etc.) but were produced by/for Ford of England.

And the photo below was posted on Neil Tuckett's site a few years back and shows the Drop Frame clearance.



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Niels Andersen on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 07:00 am:

Thanks to all for input, especially thanks to Hap. You must have been at the keyboard almost all sunday to compose this excellent posting.
Maybe Chris Barker from the GB Registry would post the remaining measurements for the English (European) front axle setup here. - I hope so!
Niels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 07:12 am:

Niels,

I do hope someone with access to the English Ford Service Bulletins will confirm the settings are the same on the Drop Frame front axle & spindles or that they will post any differences they may find.

As you are working on your car please post and/or send photos of the Drop Frame parts. They are another part of the history we would like to document further.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Niels Andersen on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 03:24 pm:

Hap
The project I'm in the process of putting together is based on a frame that got its engine no.13044657 on the Copenhagen assemblyline probably in March 1926. This engine, (which I do not have) had been numbered in Detroit on January 14th 1926 (according to McCalley page 534).
I do not think that this frame is what is defined as a "Drop Frame", even If I do not know exactly what this definition implies in detail.
I have been very specific in gathering parts representing the time frame (Mach/April 1926) in which this car was assembled.
Hence the front axle setup consists of exactly the parts you see on above drawing which are: Front Axle 2691DF - Spindles 2694C and 2695C - Wishbone 2733DF - Perches 3818DF and 3819DF
Niels


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