Wheel Runs Untrue

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Wheel Runs Untrue
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 02:59 pm:

The left-front wheel of my '24 roadster is running crooked ("wabbling", as Murray F says). At the rim, it has about 3/8" runout. I put a test gauge on the hub. It's out of true by .012" on the outer hub. On the hub itself, just in from the hubcap, it is untrue by .008" (that is the hub rides back and forth by .008). This is a ball-bearing hub while my RF wheel is taper bearing. Any ideas?

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 06:19 pm:

PJ. Have you checked the run out at the felloe? Excess runout can be added to by a poorly bolted up rim and an incorrectly mounted or somewhat dodgy tyre. A small runout at the felloe can often be compensated for by selectively doing up the four rim mounting bolts and or rotating the tyre on the rim.
When bolting up the rim/tyre assembly, place a brick on the ground and use it as a reference point. Rotate the wheel as you tension up the bolts, making sure the tyre is running true to your brick marker.
You mentioned that it is a ball bearing hub. This is not the usual fitment on a 24 model. Iam presuming you have demountable w rims.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Sunday, February 07, 2016 - 08:31 pm:

The run-out at the felloe is pretty much the same as the rim; about 3/8". Pretty much the whole wheel is wobbling as it turns. Difficult to set the toe-in, as it varies according to where the wheel has turned.

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 08:42 am:

Phil,

Please confirm you are talking abut 30 x 3 1/2 demountable clincher rim wheels. Often a 1924 would have had 30 x 3 1/2 demountable clincher rim wheels. But you mentioned your car had the ball bearings in the front hub. "IF" you car (that wheel) originally came with ball bearings from the factory -- those were standard on the non-demountable wheels up until very early in 1926. And you could even be talking about an accessory 5 lug demountable wheel that would be a little different from both of the above.

Note Ford specified 1/8 run-out was allowed from the factory on the demountable felloe. So yes 3/8 is more than the factory would have allowed.

Ref: page 28 of the May-Jun 2001 “Model T Times” they have a reprint of the May 23, 1919 Kelsey Front Wheel with the removable lugs “factory drawing.” On the drawing it states” Felloe must not be out of round nor out of true more than 1/8 inch” Drawing was still current for 1919-1924. I do not know if any notes on the change card mentioned how much wobble was allowed or not. Of course they tended to drive slower than some folks want to drive today – but clearly some wobble was allowed.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/95973.html?1245560237
By John F. Regan on Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 12:57 am:
Ford drawing on the rear wood felloe non-demountable complete wheel assembly revision 3/14/14 stated "Rim must not be out of round nor out of true more than 5/64". A later drawing of a steel felloe front wheel (Kelsey Design), without rim, dated 1/2/20 said "Felly must not be out of round nor out of true more than 1/8". Seems Ford got less fussy as they got into large scale mass production. Just to repeat - the earlier spec was for entire wheel including rim while later spec was for entire wheel including steel felloe but without rim so clearly the run-out would be even larger with rim attached or so it would seem.

But several of the other threads such as: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/50259.html?1205719288 would say don't worry about it.

I would recommend try to reduce it to 1/8 inch or less. I.e. in this case less is better than more.

For standard demountable wheels & rims originally supplied on Ford cars the following items may help:

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From: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/257108.html?1329706539 -- discussing rear wheel but the methods could work for a front wheel also.

By Dan Treace on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 02:28 pm:
You can shim out the demountable rims to get the tire to run more true. Place shims under the lug nut to move the rim out. Check with the T safely jacked in rear, chocked in front and run the car in gear. A piece of caulk held in a right angle fixture from the ground will show you where the tire/rim is running out.

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Hap again:

I’m 99% sure Dan meant to say put the washers between the lug and the felloe to move the rim out. Note that should work on the Hayes & Ford fixed lug rims and associated felloes. I do not think he meant that it would work on the loose lug wheels & rims. I also would NOT want a large section of the rim not seating on the felloe. I.e. the felloe should support the weight of the car and NOT the bolt & lug. The bolt & Lug are there to press the rim onto the felloe. The felloe transfers the weight from the rim to the wheel and NOT primarily the bolt.
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From: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/95973.html?1245560237
By David Stroud on Saturday, June 20, 2009 - 03:33 pm:
Steve, do you have demountable wheels? I took out about 90% of the wobble in my wheels by bending the outer edge of the felloe with a 15in. Crescent wrench. I put an oil can on the ground for a pointer and used that for a reference. I was surprised at how much the felloe was out of line. The inner side was in pretty good shape. It made a world of difference on mine. Just my .02. Dave
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hap again: Ref the above I’m not quite sure how David’s adjustment worked. But the resulted are great. Note he also has the lose lug Kelsey 88 style wheels, felloes and removable lug nuts.
But David’s idea of the Crescent wrench gave me the following thought:
CAUTION UNTRIED IDEA: My GUESS (hypothesis) I believe you could take a large 15 inch Crescent wrench etc. and bend the inside flare of the felloe to true up most style wheels that have minor run out. DISCLAIMER – this idea just came to me and I have not done any testing to see if it would work, is a dumb idea, or would get someone killed. Request -- please let us know if you think it is dangerous or if you know it is dangerous. Also if you know it is dumb or a good idea that would be nice to know also.



For the above you want good contact between the felloe and the rim. For the felloe above the outer part does not contact the rim but the rim should make contact on the inner portion of the felloe so the weight is supported on the felloe and NOT on the bolt.

And from previous postings:
If the spokes are good and tight you should be able to check and see if the problem is with the hub flanges, with the metal fellow, the demountable rim, how those two mate, or any combination of those items. An earlier posting describes how you can jack up the car, use jack stands, block the car etc. and turn the wheel. You can use a precision gauge to check run out or ruler or even a piece of chalk held on a block of wood will tell you which areas stick out more than others. I have one hub/flange that is really bent (it was in an accident and if I put it back in a wheel the wheel will wobble). Next check the metal fellow (the part that the spokes stick into) -- is it true? If not, the metal can be bent / trued up some using a hydraulic press. Don't put force on the spokes, but on the metal rim. Also check the demountable rim. How does it look? How does it look when you mount it on another wheel? If the same areas are high spots on all the wheels, then the rim is probably bent. Again, a hydraulic press could be used to help true it up. If it is only out of true on one wheel, then the rim is probably good and the one wheel needs help. A previous post shared that a user successfully shimmed their demountable rim by placing washers / spacers between the appropriate mounting lugs and the metal fellow.

Finally if you are only concerned about the run-out because you want to adjust the toe-in, the setting of 1/4 inch toe in will still give you toe in even in the worse place with 3/8 wobble. I would just put the max wobble at the top or bottom of the wheel, then set the toe in. Test drive and if it doesn’t shimmy and it steers good – you are good to go. If it tend to shimmy and all the other parts are good & tight then add another 1/16 of toe in and test again.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 11:16 am:

Thanks for the info, Hap. Yes, my car has 30 X 3-1/2 demountable rims. Not sure why the RF wheel is ball-bearing and the LF is taper bearing. I guess one got changed. I wonder if my wobble relates to the .008 back & forth movement of the hub. The outer bearing race was slightly loose and I used Loctite on it. Maybe I got it off-center.

Phil


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