Oil cans have been studied recently, now how about pliers

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Oil cans have been studied recently, now how about pliers
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:43 pm:

I don't remember which thread got me thinking, but there was a lot of study going on recently about the oil cans and I got to thinking about how many different style pliers I have just kicking around, so I thought I'd start a thread.

In the pictures below are 7 similar, but different pair - and in a follow-up message I'll post my notes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:46 pm:

The “earlier” style 4 left to right:

1 – Slip-joint side has a thin script with the large “F” and the maker’s mark is the letter “B” between two dots
The opposite side has no markings, but the slip pin is threaded where the nut has two flats and then the pin was peened to look like a riveted head. This appears to be a “lobster-claw” shape pair.

2 – Slip-joint side has a thin script with a smaller “F” and the maker’s mark is “S&R”
The opposite side has no markings, but the slip pin is threaded where the nut was a hexagonal shape and then the pin was peened to look like a riveted head. This too appears to be a “lobster-claw” shape pair.

3 – Slip-joint side has no markings
The opposite side has a thin script with no maker’s mark – the slip pin appears to be a fully peened rivet, but has an odd square shape to the peened side. These do not appear to be a “lobster-claw” shape, but are of a thinner head shape.

4 – Slip-joint side has a large fatter than normal script
The opposite side has the maker’s mark of the letter “B” in an oval. The slip pin is peened with an oval head to each side like a true rivet. This is another of the thinner head shapes.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:47 pm:

The “later” style 3 left to right:

1 & 2 – Slip-joint sides both have only the maker’s mark for McKaig Hatch (MH in a circle)
The opposite side has a thin Ford script. The noticeable difference is the fatness of the head – pair 1 is slightly wider than pair 2 – I’m told this is a difference between Model T Pliers (fatter) and Model A pliers (thinner). Both have a normally peened rivet.

3 – Slip-joint side has a medium script and the makers mark for McKaig Hatch
The opposite side has no markings, and a normal peened rivet. The oddity here is the length of the handle with the screw-driver which is almost even with the other where most pair the screwdriver end is slightly longer.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:49 pm:

Please add to this thread if you have other styles or info to share...

Thanks,
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 12:54 pm:

Great post!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 01:02 pm:

Mark, quick question:

Can you add years of production to "Earlier" and "Later"

I have one that looks like #3 in"Later" just wanted to know around the time it was made... I have a 1920 T and I am putting a tool kit together, just need the pliers and (the hard to get) screwdriver!

Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Jorgensen, Batavia, IL on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 01:12 pm:

I have a related question, I understand the tool kit and its contents are one of the many items that are considered when a car is judged. Must the pliers (also screwdriver, spark plug wrench) be absolutely correct for a given year (there doesn't appear to be a consensus of what is correct for some years) in order to receive credit for having this item. Or is credit (or partial credit) given for say any Ford Scripted pliers or a "similar" wood handled screwdriver, etc. Just wondering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 04:49 pm:

Gold standard judging at MTFCI annual meet, lets T's be judged against the standards, not between another T in its class. So max. points are deducted for lack of a tool kit, minor points deducted for improper tool in a kit.

Best to have a kit, and show it, and have side curtains too if an open car. My T with a 'proper' tool kit got a Silver, but would have made Gold for the lack of 25 points off for no side curtains :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 05:34 pm:

Wayne, having the correct tools for a particular year is easier for some years than for others. I'll show one example. There are several versions of the #2335 headbolt/sparkplug wrench, although before 1915 that number designated only the headbolt wrench.


This is the one that would be correct for your car, 1915-1920. As you see here, there were slight variations in shape. I think that's because of different suppliers.

You can research the tools in Bruce's encyclopedia, which has a lot of information and illustrations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 05:53 pm:

Robert B, Your search for a screwdriver may be over, if the separate screwdriver was deleted by 1920, in favour of the screwdriver end on the pliers. The two ran beside one another for some years as I understand, but eventually the separate toll was deleted. Others will have greater knowledge of this.

The samples shown above all carry the Ford script. There are so many sets out there with no script, I often wonder whether some of these were not Ford supplied, especially with our Canadian sourced cars.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 08:06 pm:

Some tools were carried over into the Model A and V8 era and because they are similar, adds to the confusion. (The oil can, pliers and adjustable wrench for example)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 08:43 pm:

Here are a few that are all different.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 12:54 pm:

I'll be honest, I'm just using the variations to come up with "early" and "late" for these tools - I don't think there is a judging guideline like the Model A guys have.

I have to assume the "earlier" ones have the slip pin that was threaded and peened (same as Justin's picture above) and they transitioned to the peened 1-piece rivet along the way. Also note the weight of material kept going down as well.

I'm no expert, but I'm trying to get the ball rolling on more tool related research as it seems there are more questions than tools...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Jorgensen, Batavia, IL on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 05:31 pm:

Here is an unmarked pliers, with a screwdriver handle and a peened (on one side) rivet/pin:





The MTFCI judging guidelines for 1915 do not specify that the pliers are marked 'Ford'. For 1916 and later pliers, the guidelines do specify that they are marked 'Ford'.

For my purposes, the pliers in the photo are "close enough". However I would be curious about other folks opinion on whether pliers such as this one could have come with a new 1915 Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Jorgensen, Batavia, IL on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 05:32 pm:

Here is an unmarked pliers, with a screwdriver handle and a peened (on one side) rivet/pin:





The MTFCI judging guidelines for 1915 do not specify that the pliers are marked 'Ford'. For 1916 and later pliers, the guidelines do specify that they are marked 'Ford'.

For my purposes, the pliers in the photo are "close enough". However I would be curious about other folks opinion on whether pliers such as this one could have come with a new 1915 Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, February 10, 2016 - 07:32 pm:

Now here's a pair that resemble the ones on the far right in Justin's picture. Note the screw driver leg. There isn't a single maker's mark on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:16 am:

Charlie B, your pliers look the same shape as those supplied with later English cars. I have seen them with an ENFO identification mark.

I pass on them when buying tools. The unbranded ones Wayne shows are more like it. There are so many of them available in Australia. I usually pass on those as well, though they may well be Ford issue.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 12:35 pm:

Charlie - from what I understand, those are the mid 30's tool kit pliers - 32 up. I had a friend in the V8 club send me a series of articles that are helpful for the post A cars.

I recently (within the last year) sold an "EnFo" pair in the classifieds, as well as a bunch of other hoarded parts to help pay for the rebuild of my A engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter -- Sparta, Missouri, USA on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 12:46 pm:

See another recent discussion about the Ford pliers at:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/611077.html?1454641576

R.V. Anderson posted this comment:
“The Ford drawings and releases do contain some information about the pliers. The drawing dated 7-22-13 shows what I would call the "standard" jaws configuration, i.e. closely resembling modern style plier jaws, and the screwdriver tip. Very shortly thereafter, another style of pliers appeared in the drawings; this is the style with the larger, "lobster claw" jaws and is designated "T-1903-A1". The more standard-looking version was then designated "T-1903-A2". The "lobster claw" style was for years deemed to be "the brass era" style. It was, but so was the so-called later style. All drawings, incidentally, show the screwdriver tip on both styles.

One other point: None of the pliers drawings show the pivot pin retained by a nut. The pin is always shown peened over for retention.”

What I am still wondering about is the Ford script on the earliest pliers. Did the drawings specify that the Ford script appear on the pliers? Is the 7-22-13 drawing the oldest that has survived? Did the pliers have the Ford script for the early years of 1909-12 or are those drawings lost?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

Thank you Rick - that's the post that got me thinking to start this one.

Like I said above, there are more questions than tools, but it is starting a good discussion


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