Over 30 years asleep in Texas - 1926 coupe

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Over 30 years asleep in Texas - 1926 coupe
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:52 pm:

Up on blocks since the 1970's

1

2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:53 pm:

No compression on any cylinder.

3

4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:55 pm:

Intake valves pitted badly and all four exhaust valves stuck open.

5

6


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:56 pm:

Lots of fun, ah, I mean work, ahead!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:57 pm:

after some cleaning and penetrating oil/kroil applied. looks like .040 aluminum pistons.

7

8

9


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:57 pm:

Great project, looks like you're getting right to work! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:00 pm:

Well, at least you won't need to waste time trying to diagnose what's needed. :-)

Looks like a great project! Have fun!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:04 pm:

intake valves working after a lot of kroil. exhaust valves still not closing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:49 pm:

Found some valves from a previous rebuild.

A


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:50 pm:

Two intake valves still not working.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 11:17 pm:

Don't use those two piece valves. You would be smart to install new valves!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 09:22 am:

Why one piece valves versus two piece valves?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 09:35 am:

They break easily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 09:41 am:

2 piece valves break at inopportune times. Anthony, I think you can stop messing around trying to free things up. You need to replace those valves and NOW is the time to do it. I have never seen that type of disentegration (sic) before. Effects the deck and valves but not the cyls?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 06:23 pm:

The valves are very corroded and hard to remove so it's going slow. The valves are the larger diameter shaft with the smooth top versus the the thinner shaft original Ford valves with the two holes on top. The engine must have been rebuilt at some time past with the stronger larger diameter shaft valves.

Are these larger diameter shaft valves (~0.343) the ones that are sold by the vendors? Will the complete valve kit with a valve guide reamer work in this motor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 07:28 pm:

I would check to see what valve springs some one has installed, looks like there may be the model A spring in there and has pulled on the valves. I had one that looked like that a couple years ago and that was what had caused it. Hope this helps


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 07:34 pm:

Shoot some wd-40 down those guides and work them up and down. THey'll free up. Then, slap the head back on it, make sure it has gas and oil, and start cranking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 10:14 pm:

There is no way I would run those valves. It's not hard to do a valve job. You won't regret fixing it right, but you might regret leaving it as is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 10:42 pm:

I second or third the notion of not running till the valves are replaced unless you want to have the "fun" of fixing the damage caused by the failure of one or more of those rusted valve heads........Now is the time to do a correct valve repair. Replace the valves, springs, etc. You wont regret doing it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 10:47 pm:

One of the lessons from Bruce (RIP) was that two piece valves were only good for throwing away......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 12:45 am:

James, WD 40 isn't a good penetrant, it wasn't designed for that. It was developed as a water repellent, and was the 40th "recipe" the inventor tried, hence, WD 40. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 04:10 am:

Water Displacement experimental recipe number 40 is great for blowing water off ignition components, out of padlocks, and other mechanical things.
A proper penetrating oil is better to free sticky or rusted valves. Kroil is one good commercial brand. Equal parts acetone, automatic transmission fluid and light engine oil is a good and cheap home brew. DOT 3 brake fluid also can work, either alone or mixed with some of the other things.

It looks like old damage on the surface of that block. The cylinders may have been bored after that damage and the valves replaced with something non-model T. I don't have ready reference for valve stems. But those valves could be any of several common modern car, tractor, or industrial engine valve. A couple different Chevy valves and Ford six valves are favored by different people. Most of them have larger stems than the model T valve. Some of them have a slightly larger head.
I think I would have that block re-surfaced also. It would help reclaim some valve seat, and help the head gasket to seal and hold. I never remove more material than I need to on such things. But in this case?

That kind of block damage is common on model T engines. Where the spark plug fits into the head, is a nice funnel to catch rain water. If the tapered pipe plug spark-plug does not thread in tightly, the threads leak and the water gets trapped in the cylinder. If an engine does not get run for several years, that kind of damage can result. It is often random chance which cylinder collects water, which spark-plug will leak, where the piston will be sitting, and a dozen other things as to how bad and where the damage is.

Nice coupe!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 06:42 am:

Thanks Wayne. I have been using Kroil and PB Blaster.

Got a couple of valves out, but it's going slow. I'm not in any hurry.

I'll put up some pictures and valve stem micrometer readings later. Maybe somebody will recognize the valves so I can get some replacement valves that will work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 11:40 am:

Valve stems are .342 (smallest) to .345 (largest). What valves are they? What can I replace them with?

A

B

C


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 10:36 am:

Still doing a valve job on this coupe. I'm taking my time. It's not my car. It belongs to another club member. Got eight new valves. Intake seats lapped ok. Hand lapping the exhaust seats is hard after sitting a long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 01:40 pm:

I had original MG valves break on two occasions. Those were "friction welded" together. They spin the shaft against the head until the metal melts and welds together... sort of.

Here is a photo of the two pistons I saved. A 2 piece valve coming apart in a model T could theoretically result in the production of similar conversation pieces. The first time (piston on the left) I found the valve head in the pan. The second time (piston on the right) you can see the valve head impaled in the piston top.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 02:55 pm:

To Charlie B actually in Toms River NJ: When is an "opportune" time for a valve to break? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

Hi Wayne, I am also on the V8 Buick site - My tow vehicle is a Chevy pickup that I have repowered with a Buick V8. On that site a year or so ago, th ere was a scientifically-done comparison of most commonly available penetrating oils. The winner? a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

John C and Terry H, et al,
Thanks! And breaking valves that way is almost NEVER any fun.
You know I loved my dad. He was a good and wonderful person in many ways. But he was never very good at getting in and getting things done. I have his '68 Chevy 3/4 ton pickup. It was his truck for over 25 years, he drove it almost every day and drove it a lot. He had bought it second hand, and badly abused, so, he rebuilt almost the entire truck inside and out. But it had the lowest rear end gear ratio I have ever seen on a truck supposedly made for highway use. I don't know what the ratio is, but that poor engine spins horribly at highway speeds. I am not joking when I say that at 30 mph I am looking for fifth gear and it only has a four speed. 55 mph is as fast as that poor thing wants to be pushed. But for 25 years, my dad, always late, always in a hurry, pushed that poor truck to over 70, most of the time. For 25 years he told me, probably hundreds of times, that he was "going to change that rear end". Three times he blew the engine up.
The worst one?
Knowing him, he was probably doing 70 up a long, steep, grade, when a valve head came off its stem and fell into the cylinder. Pieces somehow got into two cylinders. Bent both connecting rods. Broke through the head into the water jackets, split one of the cylinders three cracks the full length of the cylinder. Many pieces of piston in the pan, and the exhaust head-pipe. Bent valve pushrods. What a mess that engine was. I don't think he salvaged anything but the manifolds, flywheel, and clutch.
I still miss him.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 03:03 am:

Wayne, as I recall, the rearend ratio for those 3/4 ton Chevy trucks was 4:56 to 1 if it had the removable third member similar to the Ford rearends, and that was the highest speed available for that rearend that I know of. The ones for the 1 ton were 5:13 to 1. Chevy used that same design from 1939 as I recall until about '73-'74(?) I think until they went to the non removable third member. I had a '65 3/4 ton 4 wheel drive Chevy pickup and I installed 7.50-17" tires and wheels on it which were about 4" taller than the 7.50 16" tires that came on it. That helped a lot. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 03:06 am:

I also put in a 396, 325 HP big block, that helped a lot too:-) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 03:34 am:

David S, My dad looked for markings or tags on the rear end, but never found anything indicating the ratio numbers. I would like to find out what it is, but have too many other higher priorities. I would guess that it is lower than the 5:13 to 1 you mentioned. I have driven enough other trucks over the years, and nothing else I have driven was ever this low. That poor engine spins like a top! Actually, around here, a maximum 55 is not too bad on the local roads. So I could just leave it that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 10:57 am:

Hard to get to number four exhaust valve to hand lap.

A


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 11:39 am:

Anthony,

Not questioning your abilities but, those valve seats you pictured above, (on 2/16/16, 11:40 am), look terrible. It's hard to believe that any amount of lapping would fix them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 01:04 pm:

I agree. I underestimated this valve job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 01:20 pm:

You could try a valve seat reamer but they've already been cut way deep. Still, I helped with one that looked as bad. Realizing that valve seat inserts were the real answer anyway, we felt we couldn't do too much more harm cutting deeper anyway. (Plus, the block was already .060 over, with a badly cracked water jacket, so we didn't have a lot to loose) It looked like a mess, but it did have full contact with the valve and has been running great for the last 6 years or so.

(The water jacket is nicely buttered over with JB Weld and hasn't been a problem either.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 01:29 pm:

I have not used them, buy several folks in the past have sung the praises of the Neway cutters:

http://www.newaymfg.com/

http://www.cimorelli.com/neway-web/

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47318.html?1204645818


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 04:34 pm:

I don't know if you can get a seat cutter on that rear valve without moving something, engine or body. Maybe if you could put a long extension on the valve seating tool, so you can get your hands above the firewall???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 05:18 pm:

That worked okay.

B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 05:22 pm:

Only worked on number four exhaust today. It was badly corroded and hard to reach. I went thru very coarse, coarse, fine, and extra fine grit. Noticed that as I went down in grit to the extra fine that the valve got much tighter in the seat. So much so, that the lapping tool kept coming off the valve top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 06:56 pm:

Great! Can't wait to hear you post that she's running!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 09:01 pm:

To John C Codman: When you're removing it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 10:05 am:

I have read that for checking valve to seat contact, the best bet is to use Prussian blue paste. Smear a thin coating on the valve, tap it with your finger into the seat, then push it out (without twisting) and you will see the contact pattern.

I have been twisting the valve one 360 degree turn? Is that wrong? What is the correct technique for using Prussian blue on valves/valve seats?

How do you "read" the valve/valve seat to know that you have "failed" the Prussian blue test and need to relap the valve/valve seat?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 10:42 am:

Failed? Passed?

A


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 11:07 am:

Anthony I never used prussian blue but a pencil will work also


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 11:36 am:

Anthony, I seem to recall .060" width for intake seats and .090" for exhaust. The Prussian bluing, though messy, should work. Just don't overdo it, the goal is contact, not coverage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 01:16 pm:

Anthony,

As much as I can tell from your photo, it looks o.k.

Gotta wonder, after all that lapping, is there now a groove lapped in your valve?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 01:52 pm:

No grooves. I used the old valves to lap the seats. I then lapped the new valves into the seats.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 02:15 pm:

Anthony, you're a pretty fart smeller--I mean smart feller! Using the old valves was clever. So, how close are you to firing her up? ((I know, never end a sentence with a preposition.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 09:22 pm:

Waiting for another club member to QC my Prussian blue technique. I bottom tapped the head bolt holes and cleaned everything up. Cross your fingers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 12:07 am:

Anthony,
I'd be happy to, but it's hard to type with them crossed & the arthritis becomes painful! :-)
Good idea to clean the head bolt holes!
When I was working on my barn fresh T, I found mud daubers in the intake and in the valve galley. Once I got rid of them, she started right up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, March 03, 2016 - 11:42 am:

Put it back together and it runs.

http://youtu.be/YYvWm9zgc1o


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Thursday, March 03, 2016 - 06:06 pm:

And it drives:

https://youtu.be/XEFreoUgksM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, March 03, 2016 - 07:08 pm:

Great fun, congratulations! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Friday, March 04, 2016 - 10:38 am:

Ditto


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 01:29 pm:

Good work to even get it to run, but it sounds like it is still missing or fluttering; certainly not as smooth as most T's. but then, you didn't do an out of frame overhaul.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 01:34 pm:

They're still missing the sun visor over the windshield. Let me know if they want one (upholstered) before I take it to Chickasha.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony J. Marino - League City, Texas on Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

it has an exhaust leak.

no sun visor needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 02:25 pm:

Anthony......I missed your question about checking valves and seats.
Never turn the valve 360.
That won't indicate anything as if there is a high spot on the valve face it will indicate a good seat when it isn't.
Using very little pressure rotate the valve back and forth a couple times about 1/8 of a turn and remove it.
When ALL markings are rubbed away the seat is good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 03:48 pm:

Craig,

"That won't indicate anything as if there is a high spot on the valve face it will indicate a good seat when it isn't."

True. That's why you don't just look at the seat. Look at the valve surface also and it tell you if you've got the situation you describe if you see incomplete contact.


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