Early brass sediment bulb

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Early brass sediment bulb
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 06:29 pm:

In the parts pile found this all brass sediment bulb. So took some pictures to compare with the later iron bulb.


All brass on left.

This brass one has mfg. name, but couldn't find Ford script anywhere.



On the other side factory number



The inside had the long neck spout to the bulb, the iron lacks that feature.



And while at it, heated up cherry red the iron around the handle and screen nut on a later iron bulb. The lever and nut was stuck fast.





Stuck it in the freezer while hot hot!



When chilled, removed it and the lever just slipped out, the nut was finger tight.



Ah...the sight and aroma of roasted toasted sediment bulb parts :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 06:35 pm:

Where was this thread 4 years ago....I ruined more than a few of those dang things..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 07:13 pm:

Dan,
On that iron one, did the spring holding the lever have one end that went thru the hole at the end of the vale, rather than a cotter pin?
If so, when you re-assembled the parts, did you use that technique, or did you use another washer and a cotter pin?
Thanks...just wondering, as I have one without the cotter pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

Dave

The cut-off lever is mounted just like a radiator or crankcase petcock.

A thin washer over the little shaft, up against the iron bulb, then the spring, then another washer, and finally the cotter pin goes into the little shaft. You have to compress the spring to fit the cotter, or if you don't get compression then the lever valve will leak. You want to move the lever, but it should be tight not sloppy, the spring does that.





After cleaning, its nice to then lap the valve in the iron bulb, to get a nice taper fit and to prevent weeping. Use Timesaver brass, or good lapping compound for the task.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 09:57 pm:

Thanks,
I must get a picture of mine...one end of the spring goes thru the cotter pin hole....no cotter pin.
It's been soaking in Kroil now for a couple weeks, trying to get the tapered lever unstuck. I'll have to try your heat method if the Kroil fails to work. Only have a propane torch though....may not get things hot enough, but will try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 06:36 am:

Was there an earlier one without even the hex to help with screwing it into place?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 10:31 am:

Yes, there was/is Allen - would have to research the year but 1911-1912 is stuck in my head - I have one in the display case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 11:02 am:

Dan: You failed to mention the screen! It looks like after a good cleaning it can be re-used. I've done it. I also use the anti-seize grease on the valve. Works nice. I haven't ever lapped one, but I guess it wouldn't hurt!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 03:49 pm:

A mystery:
Why would anyone go through what appears to be a great deal of difficulty to save the expense of a washer and cotter pin? Or, is it a case of "making do with what you have"?
Here's a Ford sediment bulb:


without a washer or cotter pin on the spring side of the shut off lever:



There is (was) a wire going thru what may have been a cotter pin hole...one end of the wire barely thru the spring, the other end thru the spring, bent upwards and secured in place by "pinning" it with a dimple in the shaft, then hammered into a grove in the top of the lever shaft...






Also, instead of a washer holding the spring, the lever shaft was "mushroomed" to a diameter larger than the inner spring diameter.





So...whatever the reason, the problem now is "how to reassemble things? I got into this situation because the lever was "frozen" and would not turn. Soaking in Kroil for a couple weeks did not help - completely. Using Dan's heat method with my little Bernzomatic torch helped...could not get the iron red hot...did this outside in freezer temp (5 F above). After it cooled, some "persuasion" with a medium hammer released the lever. Will clean things and attempt a re-assembly, but the end of the shaft - maybe 1/2 inch is not long enough to accommodate a washer and cotter pin.
We'll get it together somehow....

I can't imagine why this was done in this manner. I certainly don't believe Henry was that frugal (to save a cotter pin and washer) - especially since the labor involved to bend and secure the spring into the grove would negate any savings.

Only think I can dream up is that somehow out on the plains in days gone by, some farmer did not have a washer and pin, and "made do".

Any other ideas come to mind? And, how would YOU put this back together...exposed lever shaft appears shorter than Dan's - I don't believe there is enough room to fit spring, washer and cotter pin hack onto my shaft.

Thanks for your thoughts & ideas...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 04:04 pm:

Dave, if I was attempting to save that piece, I would cut it off back to the tapered section, drill out and tap a hole in the end of the taper, and screw in a brass bolt with just enough thread to fill the drilled hole and the rest as the plain shank on the bolt. Then cut it off to suit and drill the split pin hole.

Hope this inspires.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 04:19 pm:

Great idea...thank you.Any idea as to the method of securing the bolt so that it won't ever "back out?" Maybe solder it in place?

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 05:42 pm:

Dave

Looking at that bulb, appears to me that someone in the past hammered on the spring end of the brass shaft to tighten for a weep or drip, or to 'free' up a stuck lever. That wrecked the cotter pin hole, likely an attempt at repair by fitting the coil spring that way.

The lever is now needing repair as Allan mentioned, or find a replacement lever.

For the shut off to work well, it needs the coil spring and washers.



'26-'27 style shut off. Many sediment bulbs are ruined by attempts to hammer or twist off brass parts on those bulbs....brass isn't tough, and easy to wreck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 06:57 pm:

I'm agreeing with Dan on this - someone buggered up the end trying to dis-assemble it in the past and not a decent repair at that !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 07:31 pm:

Dave, the bolt should be cut so that it bottoms out in the hole. This will lock it. The appropriate Loctite product will be insurance. It likes to work in brass.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, February 12, 2016 - 11:04 pm:

Thanks all.

Will give me something to do for awhile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 07:18 pm:

Allen,

Many thanks for the idea. A friend with metal working tools came to me rescue, and did as you suggested. Now I must decide - do I want to cut the head off the bolt, drill a hole and use a split pin, or cut the bolt just long enough so that it compresses the spring enough to keep pressure on the lever so that it does not leak.

Decisions Decisions !!




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 07:43 pm:

Dave - How about leaving the bolt long, then use a washer and a jam nut to compress the spring with whatever tension works best? That way, if you need (or want) to increase or decrease the spring tension at a later date, you will have that option,....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 09:46 pm:

Good thought!

Probably the best solution...can adjust the pressure/compression with the addition or removal of washers.

Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 01:12 am:

No,.....just run a nut up to the under side of the bolt head, then slide the washer on, then the spring, then screw the bolt with nut/washer/spring assembly into the tapped hole in the taper until seated tight, then run the jam nut & washer down away from the head of the bolt but toward the taper, until you have compressed the spring to the amount of tension you want to keep the taper tight enough to prevent leaking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 07:53 am:

Another good idea.

Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 09:16 am:

I would solder in a plain shaft, resembling the original, drill a cotter pin hole and assemble as original. It will appear 100% correct and unmodified.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 09:44 am:

A consideration, for sure.

Thank you.


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