So there's the serial # on the frame and the one on the block that matches.
Do any of the ID plates also match the serial#?
How many ID plates are there? Seems like every other T I look at has/ doesn't have ect.
Also, now with custom ID plates out and about it's getting harder to nail down what Should be there as opposed to what is.
Canadian models different in this area than their US counterparts?
Robert I can not say about Canadian cars, but for the US made cars there is an aluminum data plate on the firewall. It just has patent info on it. It is part number 1865-G in Langs catalog. It is a two rivet plate and goes inside the firewall. The engine number is on all engines above the water inlet, but the frame number did not start till Dec 12, 1925 with engine number 12,861,044. The number will be stamped on the top of the frame near where the hand brake cross shaft is located. It can be on either side. That is the only places I know for sure where numbers and plates are located on the improved cars. I have heard about some numbers on the front of the firewall, but I have yet to see any. Does not mean they do not exist, But just I have yet to see any ...
Think i read here on the forum that the 1926-7 T had the number on the driver side rail near the hand brake cross shaft ??
I suspect Ford of Canada began stamping the engine side of the firewall about an inch frin the radiator support rod with a letter and number starting sometime with the improved 1926 models. I don't have enough examples to make a guess on when that occurred, but I suspect all 1927 improved cars would have that stamp and numbers. I still do not have enough samples to know what the numbers represent -- is it just the production from that plant starting with 1 and counting up? Did they start over and if so when/how? Is there a date code somewhere in the number? But the letter that is in front of the numbers on the Canadian as well as the Australian "Improved Cars" we have figured out, thanks to the work of Dave Sturges on the 1928-1931 Model A Ford Assembly Plant numbers (see: http://www.mafca.com/assembly.html ). From the leads he gave us we now know the following Assembly Plant codes used for Canadian and Australian improved cars -- and it was stamped on the engine side of the firewall:
F for Ford City -- Ford Canada's main plant -- Below is a photo of Gary's 1926 Coupe has the number # F 1396
M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC (I would like a photo of one of those or if there are not any - then perhaps Montreal did not stamp them?)
T for Toronto, Ontario -- below is T450 on Merv's 1926 (color adjusted to show number better):
W for Winnipeg, Manitoba -- Below is W 3106 Dave's 1926 Canadian Roadster/Runabout
V for Vancouver, British Columbia again I would like a photo of one of those.
And an "A" was used by the Australian Geelong Plant. Below is John's A 490 from an early 1926 touring.
For the complete car see his profile at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=26tourer-users
While not serial numbers or ID numbers the assembly plant numbers have a story to tell. Hopefully in the future we will have enough of them to be able to understand what that story says.
Additionally, while the USA cars stopped putting casting dates on the engine blocks around Feb 1922 see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/292831.html Canada continued to put casting dates on their blocks as well as the transmission cover. They used a round tag and the letters A-E where A was 1923; B- 1924; C - 1925; D - 1926; and E was 1927. Below is an updated version of John Page's diagram he posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/325787.html?1354635515
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(Message edited by Hap_tucker on February 13, 2016)
Very Interesting Hap! I ran to the shop to see if the T was a Winnipeg build.........
Please confirm that the assembly plant number T587 is close to the radiator support on the engine side of the firewall. I'm 80% sure I see the edge of the radiator support bracket -- but I know you know if that is where the number is located or not.
The T should mean the body was mated to the chassis at the Toronto, Canada plant. I'm a little surprised to find such a low number on a 1927 vehicle. But as mentioned above I still don't know what the number part is recording. I.e. total vehicles, total for a type of vehicle, did they start over each fiscal year etc.
From your posting above you stated, "So there's the serial # on the frame and the one on the block that matches." Would you please clarify if your engine and frame serial numbers agree?
If your frame and engine number do match -- that is an great indication that they left the factory together. [There is always a slim chance one or the other was replaced and the owner stamped the item that was replaced with the same number. And in the case of a replacement block, the Ford dealer was directed to stamp the original serial number on the replacement block.]
If you believe the engine serial number & frame number are original to the vehicle, would you please send me that number (or numbers) or post them? I don't need the entire number so for a 1927 Canadian engine you could post 722,xxx and that allows me to know the engine number was listed sometime early in Feb 1927. (We don't know when it was assembled in a chassis.) Or you can use the guide below and let me know what month and year range the serial number falls in. Thank you to Steve Miller for supplying this copy that was sent to him from the Ford Motor Company Canada Historical Consultant Sandra Notarianni back in Aug 28, 2001.
Also please let me know what the body style of your T is. And does it look like the body and firewall were assembled together originally or are the signs the firewall may have been replaced? The same for the body on the chassis – likely original to the chassis or probably swapped or something in between.
It is often difficult to know what happened to our cars if we do not have any history passed down with them. But in some cases items like new bolts etc. or parts that look out of place can help. If the engine, frame, body etc. was swapped back in 1930 it would be very difficult to tell today. It would have all rusted equally…. And yes folks swapped bodies back then just like they do today. My great uncles did that back in the 1930s. They each thought their chassis was best but they wanted the other persons body – so they unbolted them and swapped them. The year range was basically the same so it was an easy swap.
Again thank you (or others) for any additional information to help us figure out what the numbers after the letters mean.
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Hap, Very interesting information. This probably explains why I have heard of firewall numbers, but never saw any. I have always been looking on US cars. We do not see many Canadian cars in Arkansas. I for one appreciate your efforts. Donnie Brown ...
Hap, I just went and took a pic of mine as well. Just doesn't make any sense. Engine number is C631849.
Firewall number is F1976
That number and is just below the radiator support.
Before this info I was under the assumption that the mtr was correct and original. That is, going off the history I was told of the T.
After looking at the #'s though, it would seem that the mtr is Not correct for a 1927. Vin on mtr is C595467
Larger pic of firewall...
So from what I've read, this would be the Only ID plate on the chassis?
Don't know how to edit once I've already posted, so sorry for the double post.
Body style is 2dr coupe and the firewall Looks to be original and unmolested.
Did you check the frame rails (R & L) for a number?
I don't know about the Canadian cars, but in Detroit stamping of the serial number on frames began in December, 1925, on 1926 models. I would expect that by the 1927 model year all Fords had it. It's usually under the floor boards on top of the right side frame rail, but occasionally is on the left one. Apparently matching numbers are a big deal on a muscle car, but all they mean on a 26-27 T is that the car probably has its original engine. But even that isn't certain, because replacement blocks were stamped with the numbers of the ones they replaced.
That plate is on the firewall, not actually part of the chassis, and is only a patent data plate. Canadian engine numbers a completely separate from US production numbers, and not having any info at hand, I cannot say if or if not that number corresponds to the production time of your chassis.
The T on the firewall indicates Toronto assembly and the number with it is just a body production number, which no one has yet tied in with production dates. Not enough info yet! (just like the Model A assembly plant numbers, or the Briggs and Murray tag numbers, much lower numbers than the engine/VIN numbers.
As Steve J mentions, IF your frame is stamped, likely under the front floorboards, usually on the passenger's side, but sometimes on the Driver's side, top of frame rail.
Checking through some old pics, but if memory serves the frame had no markings on it.
Some times the numbers are there, they're just hiding in plain sight.
As Steve said; "It's usually under the floor boards on top of the right side frame rail, but occasionally is on the left one."
And often hidden by dirt/paint/crud/rust. Sometimes it takes a bit of sanding to reveal the number.
Were the Canadian or overseas assembled cars stamped from the same time as US ones? Both my 26/27 frames have no sign of a number.
Both frames are later ones with thicker steel and the wide flange on the rear crossmember.
Paul & Robert – I thank you both for your inputs. I have started a reply but I have not finished it yet. Busy week at work.
Great question -- when did Ford of Canada and Ford of Australia begin stamping the engine number on the frames?
I did a quick search and found not many people have given me both an engine number and a frame number.
Vic’s 1926 Ton Truck has 691427 stamped on the frame see below:
From the list of Canadian engine serial numbers posted above from the Ford of Canada Historian Herman L. Smith that falls in the Aug 1, 1926 to Aug 31, 1926 listing of 683959 to 692095. Which if you use the fiscal years would make it the first month 1927 TT. But there would have been almost no difference between a T or TT assembled in Jul 1927 vs Aug 1927.
Note it is on the right hand frame rail but they are also found on the left side frame rail.
Anyone have some earlier Canadian engine serial numbers stamped on a frame rail? And if so please let us know. Also, please let us know if your car does or does not have a Branch Assembly letter and number stamped on the firewall (engine side near the radiator support bracket).
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And then - what did they do in Manchester, UK? And in the many assembly plants across Europe like in Copenhagen? There is a lot still to learn out there....
I have searched high and low and can't find another eg. of the Canadian ID plate I posted.
Was wondering if someone had a better condition plate and could post a pic as I was hoping to have some made.
Please check the 2009 posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111476.html?1257883540 where two suppliers of Canadian style ID plates are listed. That same posting has information on how to make the etched part yourself -- but you need a good outline/stencil.
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Getting close, but for some reason Not quite the same......
Did they make several different worded plates like this?
Also, still trying to confirm that on a 1927 T coupe this is the Only ID plate?
I keep running into threads where people are talking about a "switch plate", but isn't that the ignition switch plate?
Or are they talking about something else?
I do not know if the Canadian patent plates did or did not have more than one style or order of writing etc. for a given shape of patent plate.
The mid 1913-1916 USA patent plates appear to have come in a least two styles. The words appear the same but the spacing is different as shown below. From memory I believe I need to thank Darrel Leipold for originally posting those on a thread that was discussing the patent plates.
Does anyone have another original Canadian later two rivet style patent plate they could post a photo of?
Related item -- Robert do you know if the photo you posted is a restored original ID plate or a reproduction?
Note the switch plate is normally referring to the plate that is attached to the front of the switch when it was mounted on the coil box 1909-mid 1922ish. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#cb1
5000 1383 Ford. Same as 4725, non-starter cars.
5001 1383B Ford. Same as 4725B, starter cars.
5001 1383B Ford. All cars (switch was on dashboard)
See Lang's https://www.modeltford.com/item/4730.aspx for "Ford switch plate only for coil box 1913-1922" (they were not brass all those years and they were not even furnished on the switch that already had the metal cover rather than the bakelite housing. But hey it fits and some folks like the looks. The USA 1916ish-17ish had steel rather than brass for the switch plate.)
There were earlier switch plates for the wooden coil boxes the Lang's example shows it is commonly called a switch plate. The Canadian version of that plate is shown at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25455.html?1172628962
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My 1926 Model T has a "A" stamping on the Firewall also but wonder if the "A" was unique to the Victorian Geelong Plant. Model T's were being assembled at the Western Australian Fremantle plant in 1925.
Alan, the WA ford factory was not completed till 1930 way past the time Model T's were being made.
Here is a newspaper article from 1929.
Based on my current information I thought the "improved model" cars (i.e. 1926-27 USA styling) were only assembled at the Geelong Ford controlled plant. Those cars would normally have an "A" followed by a number near the radiator support bracket on the engine side of the firewall.
I don't know if any cars assembled before the improved models for Canada or Australia had any sort of Branch Assembly plant letter or number. That is another item/data point I have been looking for.
I don't have time to look it up right now, but I suspect that the Western Australian Fremantle plant in 1925 was one of the non-Canadian Ford controlled assembly plants that had been assembling cars for many years. They worked with Ford of Canada for the chassis etc. but they used their own locally produced bodies and there was not a lot of direct Ford of Canada oversight. While the Geelong Plant was established by Ford to end the other regional locations that assembled the Ford cars.
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ATTN: Hap / Robert
I have a 1926 Tudor, Canadian made (Made in Canada stamped on rad shroud, engine block and head, Robertson square drive screws used extensively throughout, with a few slot head screws here and there.)
Frame rail under passenger's feet is stamped C6544xx in erratically spaced digits, suggesting each digit was stamped individually. This number corresponds to April 1926 on the chart in this thread.
Engine block (ultimately unusable) that came with car was stamped with a C number that did not correspond to frame number but indicated 1926 manufacture.
Firewall under rad support rod is stamped F135xx (note 5 digit number, as opposed to many 3 and 4 digit numbers in this thread.)
Patent info data plate extremely similar to the one Robert posted is riveted to the lower firewall, facing into the passenger compartment.
Overall the car seems quite original, so with the exception of the engine and frame numbers not corresponding, everything else appears proper.
NOTE: There are probably a few of you shrieking inwardly "what do you mean the block was unusable!?" but the rebuilder said a couple hundred generations of mice had peed onto the valve seats, eroding too much metal to make even a valve insert unfeasible. So, like it or not...he got a different block for me. It's too late to suggest remediation...that block is in Ford Heaven with about 14.5 million of its brothers.
From Canadian made 1926 Tudor, riveted to lower firewall, facing into passenger compartment.
Wes, thanks for posting the pic of your 1926 data plate!
I have been swapping emails with Glenn from Dixies.ca where the pic I posted is from. He was surprised my 1927 plate was different, but verified that the plate you are looking at (one I posted) was taken from his 1926 Touring. So it prob makes sense that it is a perfect match to your 1926.
One more thing I should add. The data plate from the 1927 2dr coupe was mounted dead center, lower firewall facing the engine compartment.
Peter , Hap. The plant that you refer to that opened after the Model T era was in fact Fords second factory on Stirling Highway, Leighton. Model T's were assembled prior to 1926 in the original Dalgety Building on land between Stirling Hwy (also known as Fremantle Road) and the waterfront. There is a photo of this plant with the new building under construction in the background. I do have photos of T's bring assembled in the first plant and these have the fuel tanks under the front seat. The photo is marked as 1925. The "new" plant was closed down in the early 80's and is currently vacant. Dad worked there from 1954 and was one of the last people to leave. My 1926 T was purchased new by my Grandmother from Lynas Motors in Perth late 1926 and that is why I wondered where it may have been assembled. I will send my photo to you Peter. Cheers. Alan in Western Australia
Here is Alan's picture of the assembly line.
The different state factories temporary and permanent only assembled the shipping in parts at this time.
Being the factory furthest away Alan"s T definitely would have been assembled in Perth where all the bodies were shipped around the coast by ship from Geelong and were stamped with the "A" before they left.
This picture is dated July 1st 1925, some of those interested in such things may notice details as to what we are seeing here?
July 1 was the official first day of Ford Australia production.