Major starting problem PART 2

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Major starting problem PART 2
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Cash - Winnemucca Nevada on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 02:21 pm:

Good morning all, I began this morning going down the list of suggestions from yesterday. I removed the muffler and checked for obstructions ( none). ran a compression check all cylinders hold about 35 psi constant, cleaned and re gaped the plugs. Squirted a small amount of gas in each cylinder and it started but, ran very rough. after running for about 5 minutes it got very hot ( boiling). I looked in the oil fill to inspect the timing gear and it looks ok but it's hard to see with my 70 year old eyes. I haven't changed the gas, The gas in the tank is stabilized fuel and I have never had a problem with gas that is stabilized even after many months. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Harv.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 03:53 pm:

Well, at least it fired and ran for a few minutes, that's progress. Was there any black smoke, or was the exhaust so rich that it made your eyes water? If yes, I would pull the plugs and clean them again before your next attempt.

Before your re-install them, reconnect the spark plug wires to them and set them on the head next to their respective spark plug holes. Then, with the fuel turned off and the parking brake set, turn the key on and slowly crank the engine through to make sure that the plugs fire in the correct 1-2-4-3 order. If they fire out of order, check your primary and secondary wiring at the coil box, and the wiring at the timer. The primary and secondary wires should be 1-2-3-4 at the coil box, but the wires should be connected 1-2-4-3 at the timer. See the attached diagrams.

I assume that you fiddled with the mixture and timing lever while it was running in an attempt to get it to smooth out, did your fiddling have any effect? Which combination was best?

Running rough in the driveway for five minutes would have the potential to make any engine overheat.

I know you said that you installed a new timer and checked the timing, but it sounds to me like the timing is way off - do you have one of those camshafts with the timing pin hole drilled all the way through, so that the timer roller can be installed 180 degrees out?

pic

pic2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Bourgeois on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 04:04 pm:

Mr. Cash,
I have been following your thread.
With your latest post.
Your getting spark, and air.
It seems like your getting way too much gas.
The carb could be flooding.
This would be my next step.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 04:26 pm:

It wouldn't run at all if the timer was 180 degrees off, but it would run rough if two of the low tension wires were reversed at either the coil box or at the timer. Since you replaced the timer, that would be the first place to look.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, February 15, 2016 - 05:32 pm:

One other thought - when you set the timing with the new timer, was cylinder #1 just coming off of its compression stroke? While the spark plugs are out and before you check the firing order, put your thumb over the open #1 spark plug hole and slowly crank the engine until you feel compression building in the #1 cylinder. That means #1 piston is coming up on its compression stroke. Then take your thumb away and slowly crank until the #1 piston reaches the top of its stroke, then starts back down a bit (1/8 inch or less). This should be the correct piston position for setting the timing with the spark lever all the way up.

Keep us informed on how things go! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 03:08 am:

Harvey, you said that you haven't changed the gas because it has been stabilized. The gas is the first thing I would replace if you're having that much trouble getting it to run. If that turns out to not be the problem, just pour it back in the tank, that would eliminate one variable. Not all stabilizers are created equal, so I've heard. I don't have any first hand experience with them though, I've never used any, never needed to here. Just a thought. As Mark said, keep us informed. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Cash - Winnemucca Nevada on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 08:01 am:

I'm going to pull the radiator this morning and the front cover and inspect the timing gear I have a hunch that Mr. Jelf is correct and I have a stripped gear. I have done everything else everyone suggested and I just don't think it should be this hard. I suspect something mechanical. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks all for your support. Harv.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 08:19 am:

When you go to pull the front cover, remove the timer case first and inspect all carefully, could be the timer rotor is hitting something, as those Anderson flappers need shims for some cams, to keep the flapper free. Recheck wiring for any contact. And recheck the timer setting for proper 15 degrees past TDC on number one.

May be timer related, as your timer rod is homemade one, the Ford design goes under the radiator inlet at the radiator, just barely in lower front of the rubber hose. Your rod is a way too long thing, looping up and over the hose, may not have enough travel to advance the spark. A retarded spark will cause rapid overheating.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 08:30 am:

Forgot to post these photos.
And meant to post, "under the radiator outlet"


Timer rod goes under the hose


Check flapper spacing


Crank pulley pin when positioned at 15 degrees past TDC. This is easy to see when radiator is off, the spark for #1 should just occur when twisting the timer case back and forth, in setting the timing, when the pulley pin is set like this by cranking over the engine with hand crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Cash - Winnemucca Nevada on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 01:49 pm:

This morning's project Removed the front cover and timing gear. The gear is plastic and appears ok, it has some minor chips on several teeth but still appears functional. I don't want to have to do this again so I need suggestions as to which gear is best to replace the plastic one with. I see Birdhaven sells a steel one that they advertise will outlive all others, does anyone have experience with that one. I also have an original gear that looks ok, would anyone suggest using it? As always , will follow the suggestions. Thanks all. Harv geargeargeargear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

Harvey,

Don't get too discouraged after ten days of sitting my 16 wouldn't start yesterday. After a half hour of cranking I gave up and went to another project. It's been starting reliably for several months (rebuilt engine) on mag.

Car is in my garage covered, so I check gas, yep, wires ok, yep, timing set, yep. Scratch head and think some more. Did manage a couple of pops that's about it. Finally I hooked up a 12v battery to the coil box and she roared to life.

I've been starting it on mag since Christmas so now I have to do some investigating.

Good luck with your issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

I would use an aluminum timing gear, or if you have extra cash then spring for a bronze one. You running hot so quickly indicates the spark is retarded. The rough running may be due to a miswired coil or timer. Be sure you align the timing marks when you install your new gear. Once its back together I suggest you determine when No. 1 cylinder is coming up for compression. No. 1 is the cylinder closest to the radiator. Make sure that the number 1 spark plug fires on the number 1 compression stroke. The firing order is 1-2-4-3 and your plugs should fire in that order. Once that is correct, then make sure you are getting gas to the carburetor. Then close the gas needle valve and then open it 1-1/2 turns. Now pull your spark lever down about 5 notches and your throttle about 1/4 open. Now pull the choke and see if the engine will start. I suspect it will.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 07:45 pm:

I think your biggest problem is the lack of compression, 35 is at the bottom end of running any way. To me it's time for a valve job and new rings to start with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 10:35 pm:

I am an unfan of fiber timing gears like you have. Here's why.



My Birdhaven catalogue shows four choices. Fiber is the cheapest at $53, but I wouldn't give 2 for it (see photo). I don't recall ever seeing any complaints against the aluminum gears, and if I was skimping it would be my choice at $48. Some people think the $70 nylon gear is great, but I wouldn't have one, especially when the bronze gear is only $5 more. Oh, but the nylon gear is quiet! Yeah, when it fails and leaves you broken down by the side of the road it will be really quiet. Bottom line: My top choices: 1 original Ford gear; 2 bronze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - 11:08 am:

If you replace the large timing gear you should also replace the small one.


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