Transmission removal part 2

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Transmission removal part 2
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - 10:43 pm:

Hello all, the new mag ring and recharged magnets finally arrived today so I can begin reinstalling the new coil ring, ring gear, and magnets but I was a little disappointed with the way the recharged magnets look and was wondering if I shouldn't keep my old magnets,try and recharge them and send the order back or not because the recharged ones look a lot worse than my original ones and I didn't know if the "appearance" would
effect the longevity of them. I mean that the ones that I paid 60 bucks for, appear to have a lot more use on them than my old ones. these are the ones that came,


and these are my old ones which have the "ford" stamp on them.

the "new"ones are grooved up and appear abused. Not sure if I should use them or return them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - 11:15 pm:

That is how some are made. Those are not grooves. Once in the engine you and it will never know the difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 12:03 am:

Why are you replacing the old ones?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 12:15 am:

I just thought for the 60 bucks it would be easier than trying to recharge the old ones as long as I was ordering a rebuilt mag ring and ring gear. Just thought they would be in better shape than this, my old ones look great but are a little weak.as long as it doesn't make a difference, I'll put the recharged ones in I guess. thank's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 12:29 am:

Being congenitally tight with a dollar, I'd get my money back and recharge the old ones. It ain't rocket science. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 12:44 am:

I think you have the book for checking and setup. Be sure to check for cracked magnets, the book tells how and you may want to have a few extra magnets on hand just in case. While Steve is right it's not rocket science, you do need to have some things on hand to do the job. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 01:01 am:

Thank's, There were a couple of reasons that I was having second thoughts about installing the recharged ones, #1 is that I thought they should be in a lot better condition for 60 bucks plus the core charge that I will get back after I pay to ship my old ones back. and #2 I had read somewhere that the original ford magnets seemed to be stronger and hold a charge longer than replacement types,( mine are all stamped with the ford logo the new ones are not) I had thought about trying to recharge the old ones which did not seem that much weaker than the new ones, (mine will pick up about a pound where as the new recharged ones that they sent will pick up about the 2 pound minimum) I will check for sure tomorrow and make a decision, but either way I will now have to pay to reship the new or old, oh well, live and learn!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 07:49 am:

The recharged magnets you got may well be original Ford - perhaps they were made before march 1919 when Ford started marking almost every part that wasn't marked before.

It doesn't have to look pretty to serve well deep into the engine - ask the recharger how they were tested for cracks before charging. If he has a good answer maybe you don't need to do the crack test before mounting them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 09:33 am:

Roger is correct. Many Ford magnets are unmarked.


These magnets are from two different pre-1919 magnetos. None of them have the Ford logo.

For charging magnets that are off the flywheel, I would use the method Royce showed here: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/600997.html?1452448848


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 10:39 am:

There's nothing wrong with your new magnets that I can see. As for the new ones seeming not much stronger, from what you say, they're TWICE as strong. As in 100% stronger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 11:26 am:

I'm a little confused about the recharging process, with Royce's method from the link above, do you wrap each magnet with the tubing duck tape and wires every time you charge one? I mean, when you have charged one, do you then remove the wires and rewrap them onto the next magnet to be charged and continue doing this until you have recharged each of the magnets? or do you just slip each magnet in and out of the tubes each time?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

Just slide the magnets out. He used tubing with the wire wrapped around it and the tape to hold the wire in place. The tubes are slid over each arm of the magnet keeping the correct polarity.

On one hand I say go for it, on the other there is nothing wrong with the magnets that you received with the exception of the one at about 1 o'clock. It may be a smidgen different in weight.

I am going to type this in cap's so others reading this don't get the wrong idea when they see the same magnets in their engine;

THIS IS HOW THESE MAGNETS LOOK, THEY ARE NOT DAMAGED. THEY ARE MADE THIS WAY FROM THE FACTORY.

The side you see goes towards the coil ring on the ones like them that I have pulled off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 01:24 pm:

thank's, I was under the impression that it was extremely important for the magnet heights to be uniform and was concerned because of the "mish moshed" appearance of the ones that were sent to me, as the ones I took out appeared to be smooth and uniform in height, didn't know if the others were from different year cars or not and what, if any the difference was between the older model magnets and the newer ones


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 07:12 pm:

You are stuck with the cost of shipping a set of magnets back to get your core charge refunded. Why don't you see if you can recharge yours. Basically if you take 12 awg or heavier house wire and wrap 8 turns clockwise and then leave about an inch and a half or so and wind 8 turns counter clockwise. Form the windings like Royce did. Insert your magnet and zap the windings using a good set of jumper cables and a 12 volt battery. If you have the polarity right your magnet should get stronger, if it's weaker then you need to flip it over and re-zap it. You might do a search on recharging magnets and find my post on doing it and using a compass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 07:47 pm:

It's the height at the plate that holds the magnets down that you are concerned about. Did you get new aluminum stand offs and screws?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 09:11 pm:

I have new screws, but just ordered the new stand offs today so it will take a bit before I can start reinstalling everything. I finally got a chance to measure the strength of these magnets and found that the recharged ones will barely lift 2.5 pounds, my old ones will lift 1.5 pounds. I know that the recommended minimum is 2 pounds and I am now wondering if these recharged magnets are strong enough to not give me any problems in the near future, as I would really like to avoid doing any of this again soon if I can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 09:55 pm:

Royce says his magnets will lift 4 pounds after using Ted's method. I'd sure give it a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 05:25 pm:

Well, I made the executive decision to send the recharged magnets back, (took a loss on the shipping) and decided to try and recharge my old magnets via Royce's method. While doing some reading on the subject before putting it together, I am now confused as to whether the "North" indicator on my compass will point to the "north" pole of the magnet because of the opposite attraction rule! I know this should be a simple thing, but I figured I'd solicit some advice before going further. so, plain and simple,does the "N" arrow on my compass point to the "N" pole on the magnet so I can mark them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 05:45 pm:

It is a little confusing - see the link to the Wikipedia diagram below. Earth's magnetic field today is similar to that of a bar magnet with its south pole approximately facing geographic North and its north pole approximately facing geographic South (see diagram).

The point of a compass that points "North" on earth is a north pole, because it is attracted to the south pole of the earth's magnetic field. This part of the needle is usually painted red.

So, if the painted end of the compass needle is a "north" pole, it will be attracted to a "south" pole of one of your flywheel magnets.

I just checked my compass and verified that the red end of the needle points to geographic North and points towards the south end of each of my loose magneto magnets that I currently have stored away for future use. :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field#/media/File:Geomagnetisme .svg

(Message edited by cudaman on February 19, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 06:56 pm:

Dennis,

If you charge a magnet backwards it will weaken it. No need to worry, just turn it over Reverses the poles) and recharge it. By using your compass and experience with your first magnet you should be able to recharge each magnet on the first attempt. If you try to recharge it and its backwards, you won't ruin the magnet. You will just have to recharge it correctly and it will be good to go.

application/pdf
Ted's Magnet Charger.pdf (74.5 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 07:20 pm:

Ok thank's, that's what I needed to know! When I am out in the woods and my compass is pointing North, I will be heading North, but if I point my compass at the magneto magnet, then my compass "N" will, actually be pointing at the South leg!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 07:23 pm:

Ok thank's, that's what I needed to know! When I am out in the woods and my compass is pointing North, I will be heading North, but if I point my compass at the magneto magnet, then my compass "N" will, actually be pointing at the South leg!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

Dennis, I am surprised no-one has mentioned what I consider a mandatory test for your magnets before you charge them. I hold each magnet at the bend and give them a hard rap or two on an anvil. This will often lead to a broken magnet or two. It is far better for this to happen now than later when everything is going around and a magnet lets go.

You may need some spares!

hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 10:08 pm:

Well, Hopefully this will work to recharge my old magnets, I'll try it out tomorrow, if anyone spots anything wrong with this set up, please let me know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 10:10 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 10:13 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 10:14 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 10:22 pm:

That looks like it will work fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 11:12 pm:

Looks good. Make sure you keep the battery away from where you are working. I have even put it/them under a piece of plywood leaning on the wall. You will be drawing a lot of amps and there is the potential for the battery(s) to explode. Maybe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 01:41 am:

OK, Thank's, I'll try it out tomorrow and see what happens!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 11:14 am:

No need to build a specialized charger. If you have a DC welder, Use the Ford field coil and charge them yourself.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html?1427399216

Hope this helps and doesn't muddy the water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 03:48 pm:

the saga continues, I didn't have jumper cable in the garage at the time so I tried flashing a magnet with a "battery pack" that I keep in the trunk, it seemed to work, but the magnet actually seemed to get weaker, so I reversed the poles and tried it again, no change in strength. I then tried flashing it a few times with a small 15 amp battery charger like I've seen in an article, got a lot of spark, but it did not charge the magnet. now I will get a pair of cables and try flashing with a fully charged 12 volt battery and see what happens. while I was trying to get it to work, I removed the metal hold downs from the coils to see if that was the problem, when I flashed it with the battery charger, I could see the coils move, but still no increase in charge of the magnet. I am wondering if I have too many wraps of wire (20 on each coil)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 05:00 pm:

I don't think there is such a thing as too many wraps. Did you wrap one leg in the opposite direction of the other leg so that you get a north and south pole?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 05:55 pm:

yes, the one on the left in the picture (pos) is clockwise and the other (neg) is counter clockwise. the "coils are about an inch in diameter so I can get the magnets in and out easy, could they be too large? I mean, do they have to be tighter to the magnet leg?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 10:00 pm:

Dennis, you'll be fine if you get the 12V battery and heavy gauge jumper cables. A battery charger won't work because it has controls in it which limit the amperage. You don't want that. The amps have to be uncontrolled so they can spike. I don't know what your "battery pack" was but it sounds too lightweight. You need a fully charged 12V and heavy gauge jumpers. Small jumpers won't work because they choke back the amps.

I used the method a couple weeks ago just as Ted and Royce recommended and got 4-1/2 pounds per magnet.

And the coil does not have to be tighter on the legs. The size shown in your pictures is OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 04:35 am:

OK thank's Richard, I have the battery and cables ready and will give it another shot today!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 07:05 pm:

well, I got the chance to try it again today with a fresh battery and heavy duty cables but still could not get the magnet to recharge! I saw the coil wires jump when I flashed it and the wires got warm after a few attempt to flash it, but still no change in the strength of the magnet, can't understand it! Tomorrow, I will take it all apart and start from scratch following the diagrams step by step and see what happens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 07:41 pm:

Dennis, double check the orientation of your windings. You said above that the one on the left is clockwise and the one on the right is counterclockwise, but they both look clockwise to me. When looking at your setup from the front (camera position), one should be clockwise and the other counter clockwise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 07:52 pm:

See below, the left one is counterclockwise and the right one is clockwise. It can be either way but they cant be the same. And as Ted said if it weakens (or doesnt change) the magnet on the first try, flip the magnet over the other way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 10:53 am:

OK Richard, I'll go over it today and check it, thank's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 05:00 pm:

This is a pic with some of the tape removed to see the windings more clearly, they look like they are going in the opposite directions but I think you are right Richard because this magnet that I have been trying to flash now has 2 "S" legs according to the compass even though I have tried to flip and flash it seems to get weaker the more I try! Can't see how it is messed up though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 05:23 pm:

Dennis,

The wire from the bottom of one coil needs to go to the top of the other coil. That way you have "N" at one of the ends and "S" at the other. The way you have the coils set up it will have S at both ends and N in the middle.

You can see it below if you look hard. I have it running through two Adel clamps:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 06:11 pm:

Here, I took some tape off mine so you can see a little better. Clockwise on left, counterclockwise on right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 10:20 pm:

Thank you much guys, I thought I was losing my mind there for awhile, don't know why I developed a mental block on this, but thank's to you it is now correct and recharging the magnets properly!!!! I had to take the one coil apart and reverse the winding, your photos did the trick!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Black - Dallas on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 11:54 pm:

Congrats. Glad to hear you got it working.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 08:27 pm:

OK, I finally got a chance to recharge all of the magnets and they will now each lift 3 to 3 1/2 pounds. I zapped them 20 times each which did not take long at all. I am now ready to begin reassembling this pile of parts but have to wait for the missing shims that I ordered to be reshipped! Thank's again for all of the help in figuring out the recharger!


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