Narrow-Nose Pans, timelines, and questions?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Narrow-Nose Pans, timelines, and questions?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

My apologies, should I offend anyone here. But two threads on the classified area brought out some minor discussion of interest to me. So I took it upon myself to copy and paste most of the two threads here in hopes of furthering their discussions.

The first thread:

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Paul J. Moga on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 10:41 am:
Am looking for a 1911 T oil pan

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 05:31 pm:
Aren't 10-17 oil pans all the same? No cut out for starter right? I may have an early pan laying around in the barn but idk if it's exactly an 11' or not. I'll take a look for you.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Val Soupios on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 05:50 pm:
Nope. Count the rivets on the crankcase arms for starters. Then see if the pan has an inspection cover and next look at the oil drain. There are lots of differences.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 06:05 pm:
There are at least five variations between 1910 and 1917. There seems to be recent doubt, but it used to be believed that the narrow nose only went to early '16 model year. Between '10 and '15, the hanger-arms changed at least twice, and nose piece once. The most obvious change (can be seen from twenty feet) is the drain on the bottom of the pan. Up until 1913, they are often referred to as "teacup" pans because that is about the size of the drain. About 1914, the drain changed to something similar to all the later pan drains.
There were at least three additional pans before 1911. A lot of narrow nose pans have been showing up lately, most of them from the last two narrow nose styles. Anything for 1912 or before can be tough to find the right one. (And pricey!)
Good luck Paul M!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, February 08, 2016 - 06:41 pm:
This is why I love the forum :-) (sorry to hijack this for a moment)-you learn new things every day. I know my pan is narrow at the front but idk about the rest. I'll take a peak in the barn tomorrow before work if I can.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, February 09, 2016 - 02:24 am:
And meanwhile, we keep kicking this back to the top and hopefully Paul M will find his pan!

And hopefully Paul will yet find the pan he wants if he has not already? Maybe even in the next thread?
The second thread:

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 01:02 am:
This is a 1913/14 pan that has been reworked to 1911 specs. Teacup drain with slotted plug, 7 rivet pan arms, long front support nose surrounds drain hole. A solid pan I have aligned on my KRW pan jig after all work was done. Painted with black POR-15 on outside and sealed with Glyptal on the inside. Ready to bolt down and go. It will not fool the experts that police this forum, but looks good and will provide good service for your early T engine. Email me for detailed pics. $650, delivered to Bakersfield or pick up here in northern Ca. Shipping can be arranged for time and expenses.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Mario Brossard on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 09:01 am:
HI Erik, Can you post some pictures please?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 11:22 am:
There are three different '13 pans, real early, early and late.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, February 18, 2016 - 03:00 pm:
Larry Smith! I, for one, would like more details on that.
What I have in my small sampling.
In my "mostly '13 era correct" speedster, is a teacup pan, three rivets pan arms, which are tapered (or wedge shaped) where they go over the frame rail. My speculation is that this variation tends to be late'12 and/or early '13.
Another pan I have, is nearly identical to that one, except that the pan arms are not tapered (or wedge shaped) where they go over the frame rail. This one, I would speculate to be the majority of 1913.
The third in my narrow-nose trio, is somewhat later, but I don't know when they began. The sump drain, instead of the "teacup" welded (brazed?) on the bottom is a large dimple in the pan stamping itself. It has the machined ring for the drain plug much like the following 14 million plus pans had. The earlier teacup had the drain simply rolled and threaded into the teacup piece itself, and was not very strong. This drain is deeper than the later newer pans, yet only about a third of the depth of the teacup. I speculate that this one is correct for my '15, and am currently restoring it to good condition for that car. I would like to know when this style began to show up on cars? Sometime in '14? Or maybe as far back as late '13? And what if anything was between my number two and my number three?
Any information you can offer to help edumacate me would be appreciated.

Thanks Larry, and Erik.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 11:05 am:
The various pans I referred to are: Real early: the front mount goes around the front hole in the pan. Early: Has the new style front mount where the mount skirts the hole, but does not surround it. Late '13 pan: Just like a '14 pan. The tea cup is part of the pan, and does not come off.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message By R.V. Anderson on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 01:01 pm:
FWIW, the first drawing of the new, shorter crankcase front bearing/mount that skirts the hole is dated 7-9-13. The last drawing of the earlier, larger type that surrounds the hole is dated 3-20-12. So the change took place some time between these two. That's only a 16 month timeframe :<)


Some additional comments from me:
I went out and looked at all three of my early (relatively speaking) pans. Both of my three rivet arms teacup pans do have the earlier and longer front piece that surrounds the drain hole in the nose as described by R V Anderson.
The pan I am restoring for use in my '15 has the later and shorter nose piece that does NOT surround the drain hole (the one under the belt pulley). Given the July 9 '13 drawing date for that change and figuring a bit for delays in production and crossover time, the teacup and earlier nose casting would seem to be through most of 1913 model year.
But when did the bottom (oil) drain change to the stamped integral blister with the added threaded ring for the drain plug? Was there a transition in '14? I think I have seen narrow-nose pans with shallow blisters for the oil drain. The one I am restoring appears larger (deeper) than I recall looking at in the past. I should mention that my pan was badly damaged there and may not be a good example. I at first had planned to cut the bottom out of this pan and braze in a replacement from my later donor pan. I needed to straighten some surrounding area and in doing so found I was able to salvage the entire area needing only a small amount of brazing. But the drain blister was deeper than I expected.
Regardless, it looks like it will come out just fine and whether it is a proper '14 or proper '15 pan will be just great for my spring '15 runabout.
But I would like to get the timeline for changes a bit more straight in my head.
Thanks all!!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 06:01 pm:

Lots of words here and in the various pan threads, may I make a friendly request that the experts post some pics? Thanks in advance. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 06:02 pm:

I hope that isn't TOO hard to follow without the original markings to break it up?????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 06:03 pm:

Criminy Mark S! You are FAST!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, February 19, 2016 - 06:13 pm:

Wayne, for what its worth, have a pan I believe to be early 1913 with the following characteristics
1. Teacup drain
2. Three rivet ears
3. Rear casting bolts holes do not daylight
4. Curved top of ears like the 11-12 pans
5. Nickel sized holes in the body of the arms
6. Front casting surrounds the hole in pan


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