Does it make sense that my grandad's 24 style roadster has a 23 motor?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Does it make sense that my grandad's 24 style roadster has a 23 motor?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 10:51 am:

Just something I always wondered. His Roadster I have been told has a 1924 body styling with the high radiator and cowl. but the original motor to the car in it is April or May of 1923 production. Does this make sense? Story goes when he got it from the original owner in a barn in 1965 it HAD a 1924 motor in it, but the old farmer stated that was a replacement motor he'd put in. The original owner said that the beat up 23 motor laying next to it was the original motor to the car. My grandfather had that motor rebuilt and put back in the car some time back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 11:08 am:

I believe that the engines are the same expect for the serial number. Do you still have the "1924" engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 11:13 am:

Just the block unfortunately.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 11:32 am:

I suppose it's possible that an April or May engine didn't go into a car until the new model year in August, but I would think it's mighty unlikely. What's more likely is that somebody mis-remembered or mis-heard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 11:38 am:

Maybe a picture would help determine if the car is indeed a 24, here's the roadster:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 11:50 am:

I'm no good at recognizing low and high radiators in pictures. Measure like this.




The opening on a low shell is just under 17".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul wilcox germantown wi on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 02:16 pm:

Looks like a low style. No lower radiator apron and no lower lip on fenders


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 03:20 pm:

I agree with Paul, low radiator = 1923


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 03:31 pm:

Steve - Looking at the radiator does me no good either. I have found however, that by looking more at the shape and configuration of the cowl does make it pretty easy to tell the high from the low. There is a much more pronounced drop and downward curve of the cowl below the windshield on the low-hood '23,....FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 03:38 pm:

The car pictured in Matthew's 11:38am post looks like a high hood '23 or a '24 to me. Can't tell from that photo if the front fenders have the tapered and turned down front edge to blend with the panel that normally covers the front crossmember of the frame, altho that panel is not present on the car pictured. If I were to guess from that picture, I'd say the car is a '24.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 03:41 pm:

The car pictured in Matthew's 11:38am post looks like a high hood '23 or a '24 to me. Can't tell from that photo if the front fenders have the tapered and turned down front edge to blend with the panel that normally covers the front crossmember of the frame, altho that panel is not present on the car pictured. If I were to guess from that picture, I'd say the car is a '24.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 03:47 pm:

I should know better by now that it's not a good idea to type/post on the forum when my wife or somebody is talking to me! Sorry about the double,....AGAIN,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 07:37 pm:

hmm, so a couple say 23, a couple say 24. Let me post some better photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 07:42 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 08:17 pm:

Matthew, get some closer pictures of the hood sides and hold down clips. A couple of the outer lower part of the firewall with the hood open would be helpful too. Your pictures are nice, but you need to get closer so the details will show up better. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 08:35 pm:

Measure the shell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 10:43 pm:

as others have said...measure...



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 10:50 pm:

I can see from the first photo that it is a high radiator, high and wide hood and high cowl so it is a 1924 or 1925 model.

If you have a hard time determining by looking only at the radiator, then look at the cowl as was mentioned earlier.

(Message edited by Erik_johnson on February 21, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, February 21, 2016 - 10:57 pm:

Your picture looks like a high radiator.

Over the years many people replaced the engines. Sometimes, the number was ground off and the original number was stamped on the engine, other times the title to the car was changed to reflect the engine number change.

Depending on where the car was assembled the engine could have been manufactured before the body. So the engine number only tells when the engine was manufactured, if it is the original number.

Anyway, enjoy the car. The engines look the same and no one will know the difference unless you point it out.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 08:37 am:

The high cowl '24 models appeared in June of '23, not August. So it's certainly plausible that an April or May engine is original to a '24 model year car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 11:01 am:

Ah, thank you Mike, that would probably explain it. My grandfather always swore the original owner said the 23 motor was the original and the 24 a replacement. I'll have to get his full serial number on the block and see what the exact date is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 11:16 am:

Where are the references that the 1924 models appeared in June 1923 or is this based on surviving cars?

Just curious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 11:44 am:

Looking at it, I see 1998 tires and even newer air in them, 1917 headlight lenses, ... Why, .... this car is a mess !

How can anyone own or drive such a cobbled-together contraption ? !!! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 12:21 pm:

There seems to be a lot of confusion between 22,23, and 24 year models.

Matthew says his is a 24 with a 23 engine. It is definatly a high radiator with a slant windshield.

Mike says the high radiator came out in June of 23 as a 24 model

Here are a couple pictures from our club. You will notice the Maroon car on the right. The owner claims it a 22. It has a high radiator with a slant windshield. He has extended the windshield posts about 4 inches because he is very tall and needs room so he doesn't have to bend over to sit in it.


Then there is mine. It is registered as a 22 and I was told when I bought it that it is a 22. It has a low radiator with straight windshield.


Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 12:35 pm:

The confusion is totally unnecessary because, frankly, it is not complicated.

1922 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- straight up and down, folding windshield
- two-man top

1923 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- completely revised trunk design

1924 model
all body styles:
high radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- trunk same as 1923

Black radiator cars for the casual observer:

1917 through 1922: basically the same
1923: unique
1924 and 1925: basically the same


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 03:03 pm:

Burger: Those are a set of wards riverside he put on in the 70's, frankly they seem to be holding up better than the new ones despite being so old! Must be the quality of the rubber. You know what's strange? Those green headlights are what were on the car when he got it in 1965. Maybe the first owner switched them out?

I'll have to get his serial number off the block and find the exact date. If it's August of 1923 or later we'll know for sure it was an early 24 made in 23.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 04:17 pm:

Those green headlights are McKee accessory lenses - green "eyelids" we're supposed to reduce glare for oncoming traffic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 05:23 pm:

Thanks for IDing them Ron :-) Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't some states require lights like these in certain years by law?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 06:13 pm:

The lenses are Macbeth brand.

Matthew -- yes some states required lenses which would not shine in the eyes of oncoming drivers. Ford painted the upper portions of the plain flat glass lenses green during the 1921 model year. Macbeth and others offered aftermarket lenses to accomplish the same thing. For the '22 model year and thereafter, Ford supplied T's with the fluted lenses (Ford H).

Erik -- I've seen the June of '23 date for the beginning of the '24 model year cars several places. The only one I have at hand is the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. It states clearly that the '24-style Fords were introduced in June of 1923 and should be considered 1924 model year cars. I don't know how this date compares with Ford's "Fiscal Year" or any of that other stuff, but as you stated, the cars' physical features determine what model year they fall into.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 07:58 pm:

Ah! The marvelous model T! The ultimate icon of mass production. Fifteen million cars, all alike. No two exactly alike.
The headlamp lenses are after-market accessories of some make. I cannot tell from the photos which one they are. There were several over the years. They started being produced during the brass era, and continued almost until the depression, so are proper as an accessory for almost any model T. If you carefully remove the rim and lens from the lamp, and separate them, the maker's name is usually there if it is not clearly displayed on the visible portion of the lens.
As for the high radiator '23 thing? The experts have been arguing that since I was too young to get into this hobby. I don't think that one will ever be resolved. When I first got into the hobby, the whole low radiator/slant windshield as '22 or '23 business was still being debated. At least factual dates were eventually found to straighten that out a bit. The remaining two to three months of high radiator production during fiscal '23 and whether they should be called '23s or '24s may never be agreed upon by everyone. I often refer to my coupe as my April '24 coupe, and there is no serious ambiguity with it. If I had a late '23/early'24 open car? I would do the same thing with it if I could pin it down that close.
My '15 cannot be nailed down that close, because its original engine number and dash plate are both long gone. So I call it my spring of '15 runabout. Close enough.
Beautiful T! Extra special when it is a family piece.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 08:09 pm:

Mike - you're right, Macbeth. McKee made bumpers, among other things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 08:45 pm:

Wayne - On your "high radiator '23 thing" paragraph,.....4th line down,.....unless I've gotten myself confused, don't you mean,...."The remaining two to three months of (LOW) radiator production"?

It really is confusing, and because of the "confusion", of the "black era" cars, I'd really rather have either a "new improved" '26 or '27, or a '17 thru' '25 if no other reason than to avoid confusion when ordering parts and such,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, February 22, 2016 - 08:47 pm:

Dang! Now I did it! Meant '17 thru' '22,....sorry!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 02:09 am:

No worries Harold. I don't know how anybody can keep these all straight. 1923 and 1915 are probably the two worst years for confusion. But between running changes, and the confusion of calendar year versus model year versus fiscal year, all of them can get tricky. Throw in the highland park plant versus all the various branch assembly plants and it is a wonder that any of us can keep anything straight.
For the most part, 1923 model year look like '24 and '25 except for having the lower radiator of 1917 through '22. Oh, and except for the coupe body of which the '23 looks like the earlier suicide door coupes instead of my newer looking '24. Then along about June of '23, some production begins to show up with the higher radiator, while no doubt, some continued for awhile with the lower radiator (please don't ask me to back that up, it is pretty well established that it was Ford's way). But were those June through August (July???) '23 calendar year high radiator cars considered '24 model year cars or not? And what about the late production low radiator cars? I don't know. I have read educated and considered opinions for both yes and no.
To this day, many automobile producers market SOME cars as early as May and June as the next years model. Other cars are put out in September for the new model Year.
Nothing has really changed.

Me. Caretaker of an April '24 coupe and a Spring '15 runabout.
W2


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