**1915-1917 Muffler Exhaust System**

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: **1915-1917 Muffler Exhaust System**
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 06:01 am:

Ok, here we go again...I know somebody said (Larry Smith I think) that the 1914 was the same as the 1915 muffler, but looking through some of the pictures I've seen, it seems to be just cast iron round ends (heads) with pressed steel mounting brackets, but who knows, maybe I'm wrong or maybe this one of those overlaps?

Looking in the Ford catalog the rear muffler head comes with the exhaust pipe installed part number 4040, of course looking at Lang's catalog the pipe is a separate piece and has a part number of 4025, this number in the Ford catalog refers to the entire muffler assembly.



Now I'm sure there is some overlap concerning the mufflers, so is the 1915-1917 muffler with cast iron ends (heads) with the tail pipe straight or is it the bent tapered pipe? The Ford catalog lists I've got refer to the bent tapered tail pipe as 1911-1914...am I anywhere close? I know you guys posted a lot of info about the different muffler assemblies and there seems to be more than any other assemblies (so far) fair share of overlap as to what is on what year when.

This is one of those little conundrums that perplexes me sometimes in what should I do...draw it like the Ford Catalog has it depicted or draw it from the standpoint of what you can get today from the various vendors...I've chosen what you can get today, or maybe I should've added the a separate part number (vendors) for the tail pipe to the Ford Catalog assembly depiction?

There also doesn't seem to be any flat washers on any of those cast iron parts...shouldn't there be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 08:08 am:

As for the bent tailpipe you are correct, it ran until 1914. I believe the straight tail pipe ran until 1917.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 08:09 am:

Martin, you have caused me to take more notice of mufflers than I ever had before!!!!
Recent observations have revealed the following new {to me} discoveries. At a recent clearing sale I purchased a cast iron ended muffler with the three bolts to hold it together, but this one does not have the opening in the leg of the casting shown in your drawing. I have only ever seen this type of end held together with the one central bolt. Might this be a transitional thing?

A second part muffler shows the Canadian split pin locator for the later pressed steel front end. The back end is burnt out completely, but the heavy, slightly dished washer is still captive on the bolt. This is the item Larry Smith was looking to have made.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 08:53 am:

Actually Allan, these were patterned after the pair that David Dewey posted the last time we went round about muffler ends.



As you can see they're held together with the three long bolts like in the drawing...I suppose it may be that the Canadian versions are different though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 10:27 am:

The 4031 you have pictured is a hex nut, and they are fine threads, 5/16-24. This muffler is actually 1914-17. Something I've noticed lately, even though the parts book says the outer muffler shell is 5" from '09-27, it appears some need to be slightly larger to fit the early cast iron muffler ends. I recently had a few outer shells made that are exactly 5", and they fit original '21-27 muffler ends, and my '13 muffler with cast iron ends, but I sold a shell to a friend, and he says it doesn't fit. I haven't been able to view his problem however, and the only conclusion I can arrive at is perhaps his muffler ends are repros?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 12:58 pm:

Martin, I think there were three 4039 straps used, Larry probably knows for certain! I read that the tailpipe piece was held in by upsetting the end after sliding it in--simple, effective & CHEAP! Henry likes it! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 02:53 pm:

I had the same problem when I rebuilt the muffler on my 16, one end fit the shell perfectly the other not so perfect. Had to modify the shell slightly to let the muffler end slip in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 04:22 pm:

Martin, Your photos of David's muffler ends is the usual way they look. The muffler I bought has the solid ends of the later castings which were held together with a centre bolt. my purchase has the solid ends with the three bolt configuration. If this is a transition thing, it would suggest that the mountings were modified before they went to the one bolt design.

I need to check that the casting for the rear end, to see if the casting to accept the centre bolt is there but not yet in use.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 05:26 pm:

Allan,
Here's what my cast ends, center bolt rear end looks like, it has a solid bracket, no hole:

Front end;


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, February 23, 2016 - 06:22 pm:

David, yes I know there are three straps, but I couldn't show the third one because there is no middle area to the muffler...I'll show it just for duckies and to show that three were used, you guys will have to figure out that the muffler is a bit longer than show here.

Larry, I wasn't sure as to which style nut was used. So I erred on the side of typically found in a Model T. The only hex nuts I've ever found in a Model T have always been castellated, or slot or the lug nuts (and I think the ones round the rear axle and torque tube), everything else has been those bloody squares. But it's good for me I can change to hex easily...was there any washer? Can't find any reference to a washer, but you'd think on a cast iron piece there would be a washer or some type at any rate.



Ok, how's this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 12:16 am:

Mor' Betta! To modify a Hawaiian expression, your drawings "broke-a da eye!" (which is to say; they're beautiful!)
I don't know about the three bolt, since mine's in pieces, but my one-bolt appears to have a lock washer under the nut.

Now I need to bug Larry to tell me how long my tailpipe should be! Oh, and to straighten my ends, I have some ideas there based on lots of responses from everyone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 09:18 am:

David, a lock washer makes sense to me, but I'm not sure if there is one or not...maybe Larry knows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 11:06 am:

I've never seen a lock washer. The nuts kinda rust on quickly enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 08:59 pm:

One last question guys...I went to Lang's catalog site and was looking at muffler shells for this year...theirs has more and smaller holes in their inner shell and 4 holes in the second shell...is this correct?



If you're wondering what the "STPE" on the back of the part number 4025, that's a Lang's part number and I think it stands for "Straight Pipe Extension or Exit".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 09:12 pm:

Ok one small change, I got confused with the tail pipe part numbers, the one showing above is for 1909-1910, not 1915-1917. Also whilst noticing I had the wrong number, apparently the 1914 also had the bent tapered pipe too.



I guess this is another one of those "transitional years" huh?

I think the "STPL" stands for "Straight Pipe Long", because this tail pipe is 10.5 inches long as opposed to the other one for the early cars which is 13.5 inches long.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - 09:17 pm:

I made a mistake...where it says;
"Also whilst noticing I had the wrong number, apparently the 1914 also had the bent tapered pipe too.
It should've said, that the 1914 also had this straight tail pipe as well as the bent tapered pipe too.

Wow, mistakes upon mistakes...damn I got to do a better job of proof reading!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 11:23 am:

We need to be able to obtain the wrap straps separately. They are no longer available. I've been talking to Steve Lang about this, and he wanted to make them from stainless, and I said NO WAY! They were tin originally, and they will be tin again if I get my way!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 01:17 pm:

Larry,
I like your thinking, but finding good tinned steel is difficult nowadays. Unpolished stainless would work, zink would probably work too, although a bit soft.
Of course, you could mention to Steve that dies used for stainless will wear more rapidly. . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 06:38 pm:

David, why would you need a die, they're just sheered strips about .5 or so wide. Why reinvent the wheel when there are production facilities out there who are capable of doing it for you? Tell them the thickness you need and the quantity you want and have done with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, February 25, 2016 - 06:43 pm:

Looking at these straps, they look very similar to those used in industrial ducting for heating and air conditioning ducts...you know the one they use to suspend it the duct from the rafter?

Might check with heating and air conditioning companies and see if they have this strapping already made...as I recall it comes on big spools and there are different widths.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 03:10 am:

Martin,
You're right, I was thinking the end loop was part of the strap, but now I remember it's a wire loop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 10:29 am:

This one is 1914 - 1917 Martin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 12:00 pm:

Straps - if you only need three, you can certainly cut them yourself with a tin snips from a piece of sheet metal. Otherwise, your local sheet metal shop can cut strips for you.

More ideas here including off the shelf strapping:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/555201.html?1436675648


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 06:37 pm:

Hmmm, ok.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 11:02 pm:

Martin, Your drawings are great!
There is one more detail on the rear head that appeared after 12-21-15. The "lugs" for the three holes that the 4030 bolts pass through were re-shaped to make a "V" to keep the hex head bolts from turning. You could probably just detail one with a notation. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 03:53 am:

Neat detail, Jim! My car is 121-10-15, so the muffler ends I have, without those lugs, is correct for my car! Cool, another accidental correct purchase I did years ago!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 04:27 am:

Martin,
Here's a cat to set among thr pigeons. Perhaps others can date it.

This one has the three bolts of the early style, but the mounting lug is solid like the later type that has the one bolt through the centre.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 09:43 am:

Another thing we need is the three bolts! No one makes them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 08:29 pm:

Allan, looks like the outer shell rusted off too. I'll bet they're either after market ends, or it's the 1914 - 1917 Canadian version. :-)

Larry, I thought Lang's sold them, you saying the ones they're selling aren't correct? Looks like something else you might look into providing, good original looking looking 4030's. ;)


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