Old Photo - Another Early Ford

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Old Photo - Another Early Ford
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 09:46 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 09:55 am:

That's Rob's car. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 12:04 pm:

Must be in for repair, the back end is on a floor jack. Front tires are pretty low, too. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 12:41 pm:

Jay,
Where did you find it?

The newspaper photo and article:





Original photo from negative, Albert R. Stone collection:





N engine number 3:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 12:41 pm:

I always enjoy seeing those Gray & Davis Bullets lights. They seem to have been used 1905 to 1907.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 12:42 pm:

Isn't it amazing that this car still exists, with a known family history?
Mark, in case you don't know, even when this picture was taken, it was considered a "relic."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 12:59 pm:

David,
It is amazing. It appears this N was "updated" at least through 1909, the patent date on the horn. We know it was at this new Ford dealership in 1925, due to the news article. Fortunately, the photographer for the paper became well known and the negatives saved with his collection.

When we found the car, it had been in a collection since the late 1940's.

1913 New London to New Brighton finish line:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 01:30 pm:

Rob I once owned a Model N ser # 4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 01:35 pm:

Perry,
Was the number stamped like the "3" shown above, rearward of the 402 casting number, or was it on a raised boss forward of "402?"

The first Model N (as with the first Model T) did not have a raised pad on the crankcase for the engine number, and it was stamped toward the rear of the engine. The only other "early" N I'm aware of with this type of number is possibly #28 (or somewhere in there, memory????).
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 01:40 pm:

These pictures are great!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 03:06 pm:

It was stamped in like the number # 3 on your motor . But I can not remember if it was on a raised pad or were . I may have a picture showing the number . I sold it to a man in MN . I have owned three N's, a Model S and a Model C . I still have a 1906 N frame and a few other parts .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Friday, February 26, 2016 - 05:55 pm:

Rob, I really can't remember where the picture came from.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 09:26 am:

Perry,
If it was on the raised pad, it may have been a replacement crankcase for number 4, or it may have been nine #4 for models S or R,mas each new model began numbering from #1. However, the other models would have had a McCord mechanical oiler instead of an exhaust oiler like model N

If you find a pic, please post it.

Jay, just wondered if you found another source for the pic. Hap T. sent me the first copy of the 1925 pic when I was looking at our N. At that time we didn't know the story (news article) about the car, but came across it later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Saturday, February 27, 2016 - 10:06 am:

Rob I just emaild you pictures of the motor .It had a exhaust oiler on it . I have pictures of all the individual parts If you would like to see any of them . Perry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 11:08 am:

Here is my NRS engine No. 365 punched in the crankcase before the raised boss was used. An example of first in, last out?


Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 03:35 pm:

Perry,
I sent an email with another question about the pics you sent.

Rich,
According to the Ford Sales Ledger research and database compiled by Trent Boggess, your N #365 went to Northwestern Auto Co. in Minneapolis, August 31, 1906.



Now, if we're really fortunate, Erik Johnson and his Dad may have the original owner listed in their early Minnesota automobile registration research.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 04:35 pm:

The same ledger also lists a Model R with serial #365. I believe the different NRS models all started with serial #1. Most likely the early stamped #365 engine I posted above was the N Rob found.


Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 05:03 pm:

Rich,
I'm pretty confident your engine is one of the early ones, pre Model R and S. It also looks like it has the front cam cover/bushing instead of the exposed shaft (says R and S had, to drive the mechanical oiler).

Do you happen to have any pics of the front axle/wishbone and rear end showing the support rods and rear axle? The rear support rods are bent to perpendicular where they attach to the axle tubes on early N, later the support rods were unbent, intersecting the axles at an angle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 05:43 pm:

Rob, you are correct about the camshaft extension having a cover instead of a pulley - thus this is the Model N engine you found reference to. I'll PM or text you regarding the rest of the chassis.


Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Monday, February 29, 2016 - 11:35 pm:

Rob I hive not received your e mail . Make sure you are sending them to the right one wpgoble@hotmail.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, March 02, 2016 - 03:40 pm:

Rob:

We were unable to locate Model N #365 in the Minnesota 1909 license plate registrations.

Unfortunately, not all the serial numbers were recorded for the Ford Model N, R and S listed in the registration ledger. Also, there are a number of Fords listed with the incorrect serial #402 which is actually the factory part number cast in the aluminum crankcase. Finally, not all of the cars delivered to Northwestern were sold in Minnesota.

We also searched for #135 and #395 and came up empty handed as far as Model Ns are concerned. We did find a Model S #395 registered to Theodore West of Brewster, MN, 1909 license plate 3125.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, March 02, 2016 - 04:18 pm:

Erik,
Thanks for looking. Hard to say where this N went. The ledgers also sometimes had notes, so maybe we'll learn more when someone looks at the ledger again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, March 03, 2016 - 12:21 pm:

Erik,
I realized I have a few ledger copies (thank you Trent B.), and "Northwestern Motor Vehicle Co." is one of them. Below is the page #365 is listed on. It appears three Ns were on this trainload, numbers 135, 395 and 365.

top of page:


bottom of page:


Unfortunately, I don't see any notations that might give an idea of the dealership or buyer of this N.

One other question, if you have some NRS Fords with no numbers, is the model designated? In other words, do some entries say Ford, N, with no number? Or do some entries just say "Ford?" Or did you mean some Fords are simply not listed?

If the model isn't designated, or if some Fords are simply not included, then is it possible some Model K are also not listed?

Thanks,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, March 03, 2016 - 02:27 pm:

Minnesota state law required automobile registration starting in 1909. I won't get into the intimate details but it was handled locally. In 1909 registration was taken over by the Secretary of the State.

Based on what we know from my father's research, from the very beginning in 1903 automobile registration was strictly enforced in Minnesota so it is highly doubtful that there were any unregistered automobiles being operated on the road. If there were any owners breaking the law by not registering their automobiles, it would have been an extremely small number.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly what headings are included in a ledger - I would have to go down and look in my dad's files. When the registrations were recorded on the ledger, the serial number was not always included. If the model was not included, there is usually enough information to determine the model such as horsepower, number of cylinders, body style, etc. Also, if incomplete information is provided in 1909, the serial number and/or model may be listed in subsequent registrations in 1910, 1911 or 1912 for the same car and owner.

My father and I compiled all the Ford registrations for 1909. However, in 1910 I think we just compiled the registrations for Model Ts. Again, I would have to look in my father's files. He is a collector of early Minnesota license plates the one who is the real historian and has done the brunt of the research. I assist him on occasion so I am familiar with some aspects but not deeply engrossed in the subject like he his.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, March 03, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

Thanks Erik.
If you or your Dad would like a copy of the Northwest portion (example above) to cross check registration info let me know.


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