Hanger for pan support bracket not hanging... need advice

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Hanger for pan support bracket not hanging... need advice
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 11:33 am:

Alright, I bought one of the repro pan supports. They are very well done. But I seem to have run into a problem...

I can't fit the hangers. It is supposed to 'straddle' the engine support

Now two things are happening here (that I can think off) It is the same situation on the drivers side.

1. The body should not be resting on the frame like that which means someone forgot to place a spacer somewhere.

2. It is supposed to be like that and I have to do some drilling to fit the hanger (easy to do, if I can get at it.

What say you?

I circled the area in question



(Message edited by Stork on March 11, 2016)

(Message edited by Stork on March 11, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 11:42 am:

The hanger should be straddling both sides of the stock pan mount, you need to move it forward.

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 12:04 pm:

What ever is in the way on the right does not look right. Looks like the fiber board cowl panel comes down too far. ?
Is this an ounce of prevention ='s a pound of cure or is there a need?
There would be no body spacers. The brackets on the frame sit flush with the top of the frame and the brackets on the sill are flush with the bottom of sill. How about a photo from a ways back to get a better view of the area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 12:48 pm:

While you're there,lose the fuel filter. Just another headache.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 03:12 pm:

U should pull the engine and fix it right. U can buy those engine mounts. I have 2 inn my stash


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 04:35 pm:

Richard, what is wrong with the engine mounts?

Okay here are some more pics (don't mind the wood shavings, I was drilling a hole in the bulkhead)








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 06:06 pm:

What is the paneling doing in a space that is supposed to be open? Take that panel out. Then disconnect the hangers from the lower Pioneer support and position the Pioneer brackets over the Ford pan brackets. Next take the nuts off the rods that are riveted and thread the rods thru the holes in brackets ,place a nut on the top of each side. Adjust upward until you have a secure fit and place the second or locking nut in place . Now you have it. Secure but not super tight. Hope this makes sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 06:17 pm:

Robert

Your T body and fitting to frame isn't stock. Over the years modifications have been made.
The last photo shows the body mount bracket at an angle and missing some carriage bolt fasteners.

Picture three shows the main sill has been replaced, so body panels are off.

Just follow what Warren says, but may be easier to just use a tool and bend that wayward panel up just enough to slip in one arm of that new belly pan strap bracket, the swing the other in place. Placing the that double arm bracket first. Then add the strap underside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 06:22 pm:

Warren, Thank you for your input... seems you know exactly what is going on, but alas I'm kinda new to the T so i am lost.

Disconnect the hangers from lower pioneer support (don't know what either of these are)

Ford pan brackets (they hold the pan so I know these)

The rest I am lost.

I am pretty good with pictures... if you or someone can snap a picture of how it should look I can most likely deconstruct it and rebuild it properly...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 06:33 pm:

Dan, thanks... now I want to fix it... but I will need pictures to do it right, since I have no clue what it should look like.
Yes, when I took off the floor I noticed I was missing some bolts as well.
Since I am now waiting for a new brake light switch I think I'm going to take off the panel to see if I can figure things out...
Hopefully someone here will post a few pictures of how its supposed to look...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 06:36 pm:

Take the nuts off and the Pioneer( mfg of original unit) support portion will drop down. Pioneer rail brackets then are put in place straddling the Ford pan supports. First two sentences in Dan posting is your problem. Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 06:49 pm:

Robert ,Dan posted some good photos in your Feb 26 thread that should really help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 08:49 pm:

Thanks Warren Let me check it out...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 08:53 pm:

Warren, can't find which thread... can you post a link?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 09:53 pm:

Robert

Unsure which thread, but the above photo by Mark showed the frame rail and bracket to body fitting. That should help.

As for repairs, that will be a foundation problem, as the body bracket carriage bolts go into the outer face of the wood sill. Your car is now finished, and the outer sheet metal of the lower cowl is now covering that spot. No easy way to fix. You would have to disassemble the front sheet metal. Real task.

Best to try to fix from the inside. Bent flat the metal leaning now on the motor mount. The add hex head wood screws to secure the body mount. Loosen the mount from the frame, that may let the mount fit flush as you fasten it down.

You may need to add shim washers to have the bracket bolt to the frame in its new flush position to maintain the current body fitting, as door closing can be affected by work on the existing body bracket.




Typical fitting of the front body bracket, note in the foreground the shiny head of the now sunken in carriage head bolts that are going thru the bracket to the inside of the rail. Those bolt heads get covered with the outer sheet metal of the body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, March 11, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

Hmm, what if, in the process of building new rails, one puts in flange nuts (the kind you drive into wood and use machine bolts to fasten the body brackets on? Just an idea--of course, you'd have to be careful on the bolt length so it doesn't punch into the outside sheet metal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 08:23 am:

Dan, thanks for the picture... gives me a good look of what I should find.

Going to study it today to get a general idea of what I need to do.

If anyone else wants to take the time to remove the floor and snap away some pictures... So I can see what it should properly look like... My eyes and brain would be grateful!

Side note: the last owner told me the T was restored about 20 to 30 years ago at a Ford dealer in San Mateo. It remained as a showroom queen there until he had purchased it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 08:42 am:

Robert,Feb 27 Engine pan brace accessory question... . See if this helps. 2016 Forum


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 09:10 am:

Robert

Best to get the big book by Bruce McCalley "Model T Ford" or the CD set of the book and many others items, that will give you lots of details to see how the 1920 you have is constructed.

From your photo # 3 (the one with the in-line fuel filter) shows a few variations done in the restoration.

The engine crankcase to frame motor mount is held with a single bolt going down, the correct mount is the bolt up, the top threaded end fitted with a castle nut and cotter pin. And there must be a side bolt going thru a wood block between, that wood block is missing. The wood block between the mount 'ear' of the crankcase and the inside of the frame is a must.

Your engine is only now held by just two bolts, needs to be four.

You should rework the engine mounting prior to fitting the Belly Strap accessory, as the wood block provide the stiffening needed.







And this is a view of the insides for the look of what is under the floorboards. This is a metal firewall 1923. Bodies vary a bunch, but this is typical of '20-'23 with difference being mostly the wood vs. metal firewall.


1923 To fit that new Belly Strap, original Pioneer type, the 2 prong arm bracket should just slip around the motor mount arm of the crankcase, as just the inner edge of the running board shield should be the only thing to clear.


1923


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 10:42 am:

Dan, you are the man!

Thanks for the drawing and pictures. Going to order all those parts and make sure the engine is secure and bolted up correctly (with wood block) before I do anything else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 11:18 am:

I would suggest checking how the other 5 body to frame mounting brackets are attached. Depending on how the sills were made there might not be much meat for lag screws to grab if you went that route. A 22 might have had built up sills made up with a side rail that the bottom of the body is nailed to and mounting brackets attach to with a top plate where the floor boards sit and you step on when you get into the car screwed to it. The side rail might only be 1 1/4 thick, I don't have a set of body wood plans to look at. I can't tell from the photo if this is how yours were made or if they are one piece worked to fit the body profile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 11:20 am:

Quick question (ordering the parts)

What are the correct sizes for body bracket bolts?

Here is another thread showing the body bracket mounts....

Starting to get a clearer picture...

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40943.html?1196299903


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 11:25 am:

Okay now that I look at it a bit more... do I have the correct body mount brackets? or are the ones I have correct for the wood firewall? and the longer bracket (attaches to the firewall through 2 holes) came in once it was replaced by the metal firewall?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 12:22 pm:

There is a wood frame inside the cowl. The lower longer brackets shown in the link eliminate the angled pieces of wood that went from the sills to the cowl. You will note the gap between the firewall and those brackets in the photos in the link. The firewall is only (or should only be) attached to the lower firewall support brackets and 4 bolts to upper cowl. You could remove the body and leave the firewall. The 2 holes in the longer brackets mount to the upright wood in the body not the firewall itself. See Dan's 3rd photo. To mount the longer brackets you would have to remove the hood, firewall and steering column to get to where the holes need to be drill if not there. The holes would need to be drilled and counter sunk for the carriage bolt head. The body to frame bracket shown should work.

PS I like your fix on the exhaust pipe nut, mine is the same! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 04:00 pm:

CORRECTION! The longer style front body to frame bracket is mounted to the cowl with wood screws from inside. Sorry. I just looked at the one I have and the holes in it are smaller then I thought.

(Message edited by redmodelt on March 13, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 03:23 pm:

Found this picture of the riser and how the wood should look.

I have managed to loosen the riser from the frame... Had to remove the running board and splash apron to get to the nails under the body, but it is still not out since the engine mount is holding it in place.

I ordered new (and correct) bolts plus wood block for the engine mount so once I get those I will replace and in at the same time pull out the riser and see what is going on behind it.

So far it looks like the wood needs to be screwed tight... lets see...

Its been a pain!



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 03:25 pm:

Good picture showing the riser and wood behind it:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 03:35 pm:

Robert; What I was refering to was that accessory belly support that is used when the mount is broken. I've never seen the support on an engine where the mount wasn't broken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 07:39 pm:

I don't know who's frame that is in the last picture, but that flat piece welded in the frame is a no no. It will for sure help support the frame or a weld joint(which shouldn't need to be supported anyway if done correctly), BUT, it will also lead to the frame cracking eventually. It in effect makes that short section a rectangular tube, which WILL NOT flex. The rest of the frame is still flexible, which will lead to cracks forming in the frame at the ends of the rigid section. I've seen it happen many times over the years. Just a heads up for anyone tempted to do that. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 08:41 pm:

U can buy a frame for a $100.00 or less.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 08:51 pm:

Oh my.... Morning was spent putting in the new brake light switch... looks really nice, and works well.

Then I placed the brackets for the lights on the top rest and I ran cloth wire though the upholstery down to under the seat, I was going to finish the electric but then the motor mount bolts and wood blocks came in... so change of plans...

Wow what a pain... I spent most of the afternoon getting:

A: the bolts (one on each side) for the engine mounts. They had a spring and two nuts under the spring... just trying to take of each nut was almost nerve racking... Ended up wedging the wrench then going up top and with a socket and electric drill slowly backed it up.

Did both sides... took about 2 hours

B: block of wood in the frame... couldn't get it to fit so I cut it and slid it in then slid the remaining in place nice and snug.

Then figured out I forgot to place the top bolt! Had to back everything out then top bolt then wood block... and the sun went away. So I put away all my tools... I will finish up tomorrow...

I hate fixing others mistakes! Oh well, at least now that I think back on the day... I had fun, and that is what its all about, besides under the floor things are looking much neater...

Till tomorrow...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 08:58 pm:

Robert, how did you make out with that engine knock, did replacing the crank pulley fix the problem?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 18, 2016 - 12:10 am:

John, have yet to tackle the pulley... I first wanted to get the engine mounts right...

Also needed to solve the brake switch issue... not safe driving without brake lights!

Brake switch, done (save the fact that I need one more light!) and I still need to wire the new lights on the brackets.

Also placing 3 lap belts on the rear bench. Angle iron and backing have already been cut and pilot drilled, now I have to make the holes the correct size, prime, paint, dry then bolt down.

Lastly, I need to put the spray apron and running board back on.

Should be done with all that tomorrow.

Since I am leaving to Colorado on Tuesday for a week the radiator and pulleys will have to wait till first week of April. In the mean time I'm going to drive and enjoy the T before I leave!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, March 18, 2016 - 05:35 pm:

Engine (pan) mounts on, bolted, and cotter pined...

I hope I don't have to do that again :-)

Bracket for seatbelt drilled and spray painted... just waiting for it to dry. Tomorrow I tackle seatbelts and electric... Then I am off for a nice drive around town!


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