Can I Put Rear Brakes On This Thing?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Can I Put Rear Brakes On This Thing?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

1915 frame off a pseedster, so don't know what Bubba has here. Someone suggested Model A wire wheels welded to Model T hubs. Handbrake and clutch handle, but no rods going back to rear set up and no brake backing plates or anything else associated with brakes.

I'm making a Model T salad WWI Light Patrol Car with a light express open wooden body, a 26/27 engine mounted on this 15 frame and who knows what running gear. Oh, and to really make it interesting, it's got a Warford and a cut down drive shaft in it.

So, if I try to make do with what is here rather than starting from scratch, can I come up with some sort of rear hand brake set up for this axle/wheel combination? Woden wheels will not fit on thiese spindles, so changing wheels and hubs is not high on my list.

Any thoughts for stopping this thing appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 01:29 pm:

Hi Robert,

Pictures, pictures! Please show us what you are working with and we can give you a much better idea of what will work. Good luck with your project. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 01:48 pm:

Unbelievable . . . welcome to my world.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:33 pm:

You have a large drum rear end. You need all the brake parts for 1926 - 27. They will fit fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:41 pm:

I don't know much about the improved cars but it looks like the car was lowered by moving the spring perch from the top to the hole where the brake cam goes? To do this the driveshaft would have been modified as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:44 pm:

I see some problems there - the prior owner moved the spring perch over to where the brake cam should be. Of course shifting it back up to where it belongs changes the drive-shaft length and raises the rear of the frame. It might be practical to mount a stock 26/27 backing plate and rotate the brake parts around to put the brake cam up top in the original spring perch hole? Then if the hubs aren't messed up possibly the original 26/27 drums and brake components could be used. Would need to look things over and scratch my noggin a few times to figure the least painful way to make this work. It may be the answer is to add the brake drums and mount Rocky Mountain external brakes with the linkage hooked up to both the brake pedal and the hand brake lever. That would have the Rocky's as both service and parking brake. Not the optimum but probably easier than the other options.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:53 pm:

He needs to get the frame back to stock ride height for its duty as an ambulance. That will mean reversing all the mods made to lower it for the speedster. May be best to sell the speedster and get a better starting point, but if you are going to use it, the best option is to make everything stock 26 - 27.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

I don't see why wooden wheels wouldn't fit your spindles if you want them. The 26-27 spindle shaft is a little higher on the spindle body, but it's otherwise the same as the earlier ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 08:11 pm:

The driveshaft and torque-tube were probably cut to fit the lowering modification moving the rear spring to the front of the rear-end, which would probably have moved the rear-end back. Either that, or the frame would have been shortened to fit.
It can be done, but that really complicates putting brakes back onto that rear end. There are so many different approaches, and options, to do this, that the writing of it could fill a small book.
The easiest thing might actually be to return the rear-end back to its original suspension configuration for its brakes, and get the stock brakes for it. The problem would be that the frame and the spring will no longer line up. Either the torque tube and driveshaft would have to be replaced by stock? Or modified again to fit the new location and work with your Warford. Another option, that could be easier, would be to lengthen the frame about six inches (whatever it exactly takes to fit everything) to fit the new location of the spring. This would not be wrong to do. Some (not many, but some) ambulances were on lengthened chassis. Most light patrol vehicles at that time were built from damaged other cars and light trucks. Most of the light patrol vehicles had just a simple body made to fit the chassis as acquired. If they had a light truck chassis, they probably would not have gone to the effort to re-shorten the chassis. So, you have many options.
You could go to the effort (and expense) to make the vehicle as era correct as reasonable. That would involve changing the entire rear-end to a correct one, and using era optional brakes.
Using the Warford and later rear-end with its improved brakes is not a bad idea. The '26/'27 rear brakes are good enough to not need to add outside brakes for safety (as long as the '26/'27 brakes are properly maintained).

Lengthening the frame a few inches should be easy. A common (an original) way was to get a rear part of a frame, with a cross-member, about a foot too long for the addition needed. The taper allows the side rails to slip together (front piece inside, rear piece outside) with some extension easily. Some heat and adjust may be necessary. Fit, square, drill, and bolt. There are some other simple cut and bolt methods that also work quite well.

Changing to wood wheels should be easy. Either now, or later.
Have fun!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 09:03 pm:

I believe I came to the conclusion that the wheels are Model A with T wood hubs welded into them. This is just from memory about previous posts. If so the 26-27 stuff will not work with A wheels. I think it is possible to put small drums in a A wire wheel with some work and welding, but unsure of all that is involved. For what you are trying to build, you probably need to find some wood wheels and add the proper brake drums and backing plates to make everything work. The length would need to be made correct for whatever parts you have or acquire. If the frame has not been cut and is basically stock, the simplest and cheapest fix is to find another rear axle and un-cut driveshaft, either small drum or big drum will work. Small drum is more correct for the era you are working to somewhat replicate. Then sell the Warford stuff you have to add funds to the project. Then if you have Model A wheels with T hubs welded in, You will need either wire T wheels or T wood wheels with large brake drums if you use a 26-27 rear end. or wood T wheels with either large drums to use on a 26-27 rear end or small drums to use on the 25 and before rear ends. Lots of ways to go about it, good luck on the project.... Have fun and be safe ... Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

If you keep the Warford, you will NEED rear brakes of some type. If the Warford ever gets out of gear you have no brakes. I took a ride around the block in a car like that when the driver chose to shift and couldn't get it back in gear. Only doing about 25 it was still exciting for both of us. If you choose not to add brakes, lose the Warford and go back to a stock driveshaft. If your frame hasn't been modified, it should be an easy switch. That would also let you go back to the normal spring perch location.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 06:29 pm:

I think that another rear end and drive shaft would be the easiest, cheapest option also. Unless you know if the babbit thrust washers have been replaced, you will need to go through the rear end anyway. I suspect the rear end was lowered for racing on a closed track and no brakes were ever used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 08:27 pm:

OK, if I ditch the entire rear axle and driveshaft and Warford, what rear end would I be looking for?
I have the 26/27 engine and hogshead.

My frame measures a little over 101" long, so I believe it to be stock 1915.

Are all T rear axles and driveshafts the same gearing and dimensions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 08:55 pm:

All of the essential dimensions are the same so you could put any rear axle assembly under your car. The large drum (26/27) has lined brakes that actually work. The 09 to 25 has small drums with typically unlined shoes that work to keep the car stopped but not really meaningful as a service brake. If you are shooting for a 15 that was redone in 26 or 27 then any rear axle assembly would be OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 09:01 pm:

For gearing - the 3.63 ratio was standard for almost all Model T's. Some sedans and coupes for high/hill country used a 4 to 1 ratio. More than ninety percent of the rear axles around use the standard ratio with the 11 tooth pinion gear mated with a 40 tooth ring gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 09:50 pm:

I've got a barn in Leavonworth, KS with about a dozen rear axles and wishbones attached to them. No idea if T or A or what, but I'll look through them before I purchase anything.

I'm getting leary of the set up in the frame now. The rear wheels just spin on the axle, no keys in them, so it could not have been running when sold to me. When I Try to remove one castle nut on the rear spindle, I hear the driveshaft turning in it's tube, but the U joint on the otherside of the Warford is not turning, it spins freely. I can't get the Warford in gear to provide tension to the driveshaft so I can remove the spindle nuts. I'm getting worried that this Warford is operational and might as well replace it and the rear end at the same time and give me an opportunity to have some sort of rear brake set up.

TO THE BARN!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 06:40 am:

Robert, I think you need to find someone to help you on this project. You keep referring to the rear axle as a spindle, that is isn't what it is, it is an axle, and you have had several problems with the wheels and such. You have a LOT of problems with the chassis that you have, it seems to have been modified a lot. I think you would be much better off to find a chassis that is more like what you need. Do some research and look around. I think you can find something that will be much better for your build. I would look for something like that, and sell your speedster chassis to someone that wants to build one instead of trying to change everything that is wrong, which seems to be almost everything. JMHO. Dave


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