Front spindle and bearing issue. What did Bubba leave me?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Front spindle and bearing issue. What did Bubba leave me?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 02:16 pm:

Purchased speedster to use as basis for Model T salad WWI Light Patrol Vehicle. Suggested it's a 1915 frame, but the rest is FrankenT. 26/27 engine, Model A wire wheels welded to T hubs? Lowered or dropped spingles?

Anyway, one front wheel destroyed the wheel bearing that was in there and I have no idea how to replace it or with what. The wheels appear to have some sort of bushing or hub pressed into the rear to fit on the spindle. The bearings are left hand and right hand thread. They screw on with a front not on the bearing itself, followed by a lock washer with a tab to go into a slotted spindle, but these are not, the washer is just for spacing or looks? Then the castle nut and split pin.

Any idea what these spindles are from? And how would I locate replacement bearings? The one that is in two pieces and all the rollers I canot find a part number or any way to ID it.

And and all comments or suggestions appreciated.

A wooden wheel will not go on this spindle, if that helps.

I'll hang up and listen. Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 02:37 pm:

The spindles look like "T". I would trash the wheels and get a set of Model T wheels and replace the rear end with one that would fit what ever wheels that you get. Non of this should be overly expensive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:29 pm:

Those are T spindles and bearings. Someone welded wood wheel hubs to the wire wheels. Model A bearings aren't threaded inside,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:46 pm:

Aren't those Model T wheels? I don't see any Model A reinforcement ribs.

Yes, you have T spindles. The tabbed washer fits the slot in the spindle so it won't turn and unscrew the bearing. The best price for front wheel bearings is usually at Rock Auto.

Here are the part numbers:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:51 pm:

At one time they were perfectly good Model A wheels.But now I'm not sure what they're good for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 03:51 pm:

Hmmmmmm....

I have several T wooden wheels and when I took the wire wheels off to take these photos, I couldn't get a wooden wheel back on. Not even close.

I'll try again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 04:11 pm:

The same spindle is used for both wire and wood wheels, the hubs are different but spindles are interchangeable. Earlier wood wheels had ball bearings rather than tapered Timken rollers but they fit the same spindles. There were unique one piece spindles on the very early cars and the 26/27 spindles have the axle stub mounted about 5/8" higher on the spindle body than the teens to 25s but the bearings still all fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 04:54 pm:

I still don't see any Model A ribs on those wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 06:12 pm:

I don't know much about wire wheels but, I think those are T wheels.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 06:50 pm:

Steve,

I don't believe there are any ribs on 28/29 Model A wheel hubs. Those are Model A wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

OK, after I went through my stash of wooden wheels and loose hubs, I figured out the front and rear wheel hub thing. And I thought I was doing good on the right hand left hand thread thing...
So, the wooden wheels will fit. Or the wire wheels will work as well. Wheel bearings on the front wire sheels, I only took one rear wheel off and it did not have a key in the slots, so that wheel was free wheeling. Appears to have a wheel bearing in the outer part of the hub. Two different bearings for the two different hub styles, front and rear, I presume.

So, now I guess it is down to what look I want and how accurate to the 1915 appearance I want to be.

But the spindles all are slotted, but the rear ones have a smaller thread and castle nut. My front spindles have a larger diameter and castle nut. So I don't completely understand the interchangeability of them. Certainly not frm front to rears in my case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 07:02 pm:

Robert,

I don't mean to pick on you but, you don't know what you're doing. Honest, I don't mean that as an insult.

First, you did the right thing to come to this forum.

Second, before you do anything else, buy & read this book: https://www.modeltford.com/item/RM7.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 07:54 pm:

Front and rear are totally different.

Front wheel hubs spin on the spindles. Most years use the tapered Timken bearings. The outer bearings are threaded for adjustment and are followed by a tabbed washer and large castle nut to lock the bearing adjustment.

For the rear axle, the bearings are Hyatt type located inside the ends of the main axle housing. These are long (about 4") roller bearings. The axles spin in them while the hubs are keyed on the tapered axle end and secured with a fairly large castle nut.

Jerry is right, get the book before you get carried away making any changes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 10:25 pm:

Steve, I thought they were T wire wheels too, but the centres look too large in diameter. On close inspection of the one shown right side out in the first lot of photos, I can imagine seeing the reinforcement ribs. As far as I know, all the A wire wheels had the reinforcement ribs.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 10:43 pm:

This should help you guys spot the difference between T, early 28, and typical 28-29 wheels. Scroll to the pictures.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139639&highlight=early+wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 11:34 pm:

Steve, you won't see the Model A wheel ribs from the back because there is a T hub welded in the way. Note the six holes on the inside (from an adapted wooden wheel hub) but the five now Seles holes on the outside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 11:50 pm:

Those are T spindals.
Just as posted,wood wheel hubs welded to wire wheels.
No better than the welding looks those t hubs could probably be removed from the wire wheels easy enough. Decent set of wheels if hub was removed.
I am leaning in the direction Steve is, I think those are T wheels.
If they aint, darn good illusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 11:52 pm:

Zooming in on the second photo, I can see the Model A rib


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 12:07 am:

I would say someone could not find (or afford) the T steel wheel hubs and welded these stripped wood hubs to the wheels to make them fit. Don't know why they would destroy the wheel bearings though.Do you have the spindles on the wrong sides? The right spindle should have left-hand threads, the left spindle right hand threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 12:14 am:

Model A wheels 28-9
T hubs and spindles looks like model A bearings


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 11:54 am:

The passengers side front wheel hub is lefty tighten and righty loosen. The drivers side is righty tighty, lefty loosen. Absolutely the opposite of my 42 military jeep. But I did know enought to try to spin them the opposite way before grabbing the braker bar.

I'm leaning towards keeping these wire wheels after a close inspection after sandblasting to check for cracks or loose welds. I was considering wooden wheels so that I could install a hand brake system on the rear. I have another post going on that. But with the rear spring mounted by Bubba and a short driveshaft to acomidate a Warford transmission, the consensus is that I will not have a hand brake system without inventing one. So I'm leaning towards using these wire wheels.

What front wheel bearing would I need to obtain to replace the one that is shredded. It is the passenger front, so a left hand thread and the small two sided blat nut on the surface for tightening down.

And yes, I know nothing about T's. I have the service manual, but for reasons that I do not want to get into on this froum, I find it slightly easier to ask the questions here and weight the different responses from the "real world". I save going to the book and asking someone to look sections up for me for trivial items that I don't want to squander my welcome on this board with.

You see, I am blind. And cannot read the book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 12:49 pm:

Aha, so your reader doesn't pick up the numbers I posted above. Here they are in regular type:

Inner cup Ford #2833 Timken #14273
Inner bearing Ford #2834 Timken #14120
Outer cup Ford #2836 Timken #09194
Outer bearing, left Ford #2837 Timken #09075
Outer bearing, right Ford #2838 Timken #09076

Felt lined seal is National 5727
Federal Mogul neoprene seal is 204002
SKF neoprene seal is 17617

On Timken bearings there is no separate two-sided nut. That's part of the bearing.

As I mentioned before, best prices on the bearings are usually at Rock Auto. A local parts store should be able to get the seals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 02:14 pm:

Thank you for the numbers. It does make my life easier. We are almost ready to get the frame up on saw horses for priming and painting. I'll pull all the wheels and take an inventory of what I need and place one order with Rock auto.

Yes, the bearing that is shot on the front and the bearing that is good on the front have a stamped raised area on the face of the bearing with two flat surfaces for a wrench to grab. All one piece inless it is shredded like mine.

Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 08:18 pm:

Hi Robert. Are you going to check the inner bearings on those front wheels?
Will you use a hammer and punch to drive the seals and bearings out of the inside of the front wheels to check them or to regrease them?
Perhaps do it correctly and get the seals out first and lift the bearings out with your finger.
Personally, I think you should and get some seals coming also with that outer bearing.

Mr Jelf. Steve, I pondered all day how I could help Robert. I saw your post about the reader and I say thank you!

Robert, how much can you see and would you tell us how your reader works?
Are pictures a help to you or your helper?
Is your reader punctuation sensitive and does it use or tell you about punctuation?
Let us know how can we help you better. Did I ask too many questions in a row?
You finally told us what I had been wondering about your sight. We'll help best we can. Smiley face here.
These folks know their model T's and you are in the right place! Another smiley face here.

On your other thread about the rear brakes on that 1926 to 1927 rear axle, do you have some parts available to reinstall a backing plate, the brake cam and some shoes on that axle? Even tho they might be in the wrong place compared to factory.
Do you have small drum wooden spoked rear wheels? Can you get a pair of late drums to fit onto to your wheels?

Serious question. Was this too much type for your reader?
Duane
Let us know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 10:51 am:

Robert,

While my comment above was abrupt anyway, it now appears even more so, in light of your situation. My apologies for not considering that you may have more to deal with than just Model T stuff. Even with my two good eyes, I suspect you'll get far more done on your project than I will with mine. Kudos to you! I'll try to help where I can, and in a way that you're comfortable with.


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