Old Photo - Brass Era - Ready For The Hunt

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Old Photo - Brass Era - Ready For The Hunt
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 10:27 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Mays on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 10:43 pm:

Thanks Jay, sure do enjoy your pictures


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Evan in Paso Robles on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 11:10 pm:

1913 Touring (windshield folded forward with straight support arms). Really neat photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 11:17 pm:

A very early 1914 style touring (passenger door) with a 1913 style windshield. John Brown headlights.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 08:38 am:

Great photo thank you for posting it.

Ken,

Good catch! Probably another example of how Ford used up the older parts. While it is possible that the windshield may have been replaced, based on the shiny paint on the driver's side of the car and the overall condition of the car I think this is one of those pictures of "my new car" or one that isn’t very old. In that case the 1913 style windshield probably was delivered to the customer already attached to the body. I would think from the factory – but below is perhaps another possibility?

Does anyone know if the 1913 and 1914 style windshields are interchangeable or if they are swapped from one body to the next if the mounting holes are in the wrong spot or the front top bow needs to be different etc.?

I don’t know if they are or are not interchangeable. But if they are, it is also possible that a local dealer may have made the swap when he assembled the car. We have seen photos of the cars being unloaded from the box cars during 1914 ( another great photo from the Denver Library that I cannot locate today on their site) and the windshields are normally removed as the bodies were stacked in one end of the box car and the chassis at the other end.



Again if the windshields are interchangeable and the dealer was shipped the 1913 and 1914 style bodied cars in the same shipment. And of course if the local dealer had some older windshields in his parts department he may have wanted to get rid of the older style as the new bodies came in? Below is a scan of a Xerox from the Denver Library, the Western History and Genealogy collection. I tried to locate the photo on the site again today – but my old link did not work. Google did not find it, and I couldn’t locate using the search on their site. The same photo but with the 1914 body that is propped up against the wall is cropped mostly out - appears on page 20 of Henry L. Dominguez’ “The Ford Agency.” In his book he describes it as a 1913, but I suspect it is really a 1914 bodied car based on the windshield bracket and the 1914 style body that is stored against the wall. And the library also has it listed 1914. The photo used to be coded CHS.X6746 .



Again if someone knows if the 1913 style and 1914 style interchange without having to drill different holes in the body or changing the front top bow or other parts please let us know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 08:57 am:

Hap, the '13 I bought last year up in MN came with a '14 windshield. Drove me nuts, being not correct and all! That and the upholstery, which has now since been changed also. Well anyway...I was lucky enough to find a great NOS '13 windshield frame in it's original crate (I'm saving that forever!) and it went on just as perfect as the '14 windshield that was on the car to begin with. No changes needed to anything from the brackets, holes or top. Hope this helps.

Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 09:00 am:

Oh yeh, I see that '14 also has the JNO Brown 110 sidelights with the red jewel on the back, from what I've read, those are not supposed to have the jewel for '14. Probably a carry-over left over stock. But sure wish I had that right one for my '13, cause at the moment, it has the one without the jewel, and it too, is driving me nuts!! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 09:54 am:

Here is another early photo of a '14 with a '13 windshield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 11:28 am:

The windshield that folds forward seems to be common on early model year '14 cars made in July / August of 1913.

This is BJ and Casey Miller's car, an August 1913 made '14 touring. It has the '13 style windshield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 12:52 pm:

Those early 1914 style touring cars also have a full bead running across the bottom of the rear center tub panel like the 1913's. I suspect most of the July 1913 "1914 style" touring cars were Beaudette bodies.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, March 14, 2016 - 10:54 pm:

I seem to remember that Bruce (RIP) mentioned that there were structural problems with the 13 body and required retrofit. I suppose that they may have started using the 14 bodies earlier than normal rather than reworking 13 bodies. I think I read this somewhere but who can remember anything 30 years later??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 05:10 am:

Tim,

Thank you for confirming that the 1913 style and 1914 style windshields will interchange without having to drill any additional holes etc.

Larry and Royce,

Thank you for the photos of the early 1914s with 1913 style windshield.

Tony,

Yes, the 1913 style touring bodies had an issue with sagging in the rear. Bruce mentions that at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1913H.htm the following about the 1913 style touring bodies:

“The initial 1913 Touring bodies were built on wooden sills about 2-5/16 inches thick. The front and rear sections of the body were separate, with the doors extending to the splash aprons to give the body a one-piece appearance. These thin sills proved to be too weak, allowing the doors to open as the rear of the body flexed, particularly when there were rear-seat passengers. Early in production the sills were reinforced with a a strip of wood which was glued and screwed on top of the existing body sill. Later a formed-steel bracket which coupled the two body sections together was installed over the body sill. Then additional body brackets were installed ahead of the rear seat section, and finally the sills were increased to 3-1/4 inches but the problem was still not solved. The ultimate solution, however, was the change to smaller doors with a connecting body panel (the 1914 style body) in later 1913.”
And in his book and CD he has several pages showing the braces and brackets that Ford installed and/or made available for installation by the dealers.

I wonder how many days, weeks, or perhaps even months of overlap there may have been when both the 1913 style touring bodies and 1914 style touring bodies were both being dropped onto the chassis?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 05:51 am:

1913 or 1914 seems to depend on the production date. Royce's photo of the Miller's car, made in August of 1913, he says is a 1914 model. Just when does the 1914 production year begin? Is it the same date for each year? It would seem that the new model year is being pushed further into the previous year.

Hoping for some enlightenment.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 09:08 am:

Allan - Steve Jelf has condensed Bruce's model year info into one convenient page: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG90.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

Hap and Allan,

The "overlap" begins in July of 1913. See following note in the Encyclopedia for changes in 1913.

"JUL 1 Acc. 575, Letter 431, Ford Archives
Many notes on 1914 Touring body which would seem to indicate that this body was now used in production."

I have #312,4XX and it is a "1914 style" touring with a Beaudette body. Mine didn't come to me with a '13 windshield but they are easily changed as y'all have found out from Tim.

As I said above, those cars by Beaudette have a bead on the lower center rear panel. That bead is typical of a 1913 touring car.

Anyone have a rear panel bead on a '14 after September 1913?

The serial number of the engine is basically all we have to go on and we have had many discussions about that. My stub shaft is dated 7-11-13 and the block casting is 6-19-13 with a serial number "Encyclopedia date" of 7-17-1913. The body numbers confirm the July engine build.

All that being said, we are not sure when ANY of these cars were actually put together!

From some discussions in the past, it seems Beaudette had the most "successful" 1913 body that gave the least problems and also supplied the most early "1914 style" tourings.

These cars will also have pipe plug engines, two piece drive shafts and 1913 fenders (no beads on the inner panels front and rear) as well as the lower rear tub bead. The axles, steering column and other forgings are all Dodge Brothers on mine but I'm sure that isn't necessarily the case.

I have a friend that has 335,XXX and it is a 1913 style touring (Wilson I think) so this overlap went on for at least a couple of months. Ford had to use up all the 1913 touring body orders and inventory and get the suppliers into the 1914 style.

I guess the 1913 touring cars after July 1, 1913 are really "1914's" just like the January through March 1915 "1914 style" are 1915 touring cars.

Larry's photos have the Ford Manufacturer license plate, Michigan 5005M. You will see that plate often in official Ford photographs where the cars are being driven on the street.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 02:31 pm:

The Ford Motor Company plate, Michigan 5005M, is for the year 1913.



Although there are some leaves on ground, the last photo shows trees in full leafage. Still summer 1913.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 09:10 pm:

I do not think that there is anything more confusing about a model T Ford than identifying the year for it. For myself, I have said for years that there were at least two ways to identify the year, model year, and calendar year. However, that is not adequate. So I added fiscal year to my list. There is yet another kind of year, and I have been using it in discussions for quite some time now. And that is the style year.
Sometimes it really does not matter. Sometimes we need to be specific about which kind of year we are referring to. I sympathize with Royce. He wants it simple and correct. August 1st through July is as correct as it gets. But Ford was not that easy. Model years were sometimes published as something other than that. Changes in the cars were being made continuously, usually near the model year, but seldom was it a neat and timely change.
Changes nearly always had crossover time when both older and newer designs were used. Even in the main plant, this crossover could cover weeks and even months. Branch plants often lagged a month or two behind.

The dauntlessgeezer link posted above has a lot of very good information on it. I would highly recommend that anyone that cares about this discussion read it all.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 09:54 pm:

Teacup sump too


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 09:56 pm:

Early 1914 fenders, no bills


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 10:28 pm:

1914 fenders never have bills. 1915 fenders have bills.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim magill on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 07:10 am:

Hi my name is Tim Magill and this is my first post. I was wondering if Ken or someone could post a picture of the rear bead on a 1914 touring. I have a jan. 1914 with a small rolled bead at the bottom. Thanks Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim magill on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 07:15 am:

Forgot to say it is a Beaudette body


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 09:51 am:

I don't have a picture but the bead is the same size as the beading on the body, false door, etc. It is at the very bottom just as it turns under.

Is your "B" at the top center of the rear seat heel panel?

How are you able to date your car?

The trivia is interesting because most of the T production is a running change. Welcome to the affliction.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim magill on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 10:08 am:

Hi Ken yes the b is at the top center of the heel panel. The body number is 1-14-67887. Casting date on the block 12-29-13. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 10:45 am:

Do you have a pipe plug type of "freeze" plug in the engine?

They are not freeze plugs but most folks call them that.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim magill on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 04:59 pm:

No it has regular freeze plugs in it. It has 1913 type fenders with no bead, it has all of its original sheet metal, two piece driveshaft, original upholstery, front floor mat, it is missing the rear cocoa mat so if you happen to know anybody that might have an original usable one I would be interested in it. I am going to advertise for one in the classifieds thanks Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 05:47 pm:

Hey, Tim, just curious if you bought your '14 from a guy named Jim in Warsaw, Indiana a couple of years ago?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim magill on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 06:20 pm:

Hi Bill yes I bought it in Warsaw from Jim Lemler


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 10:18 pm:

Tim, I sent you a PM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim magill on Friday, March 18, 2016 - 05:59 am:

Hey Bill I will try to give you a call later today if possible, if not it will be Sunday afternoon. Tim


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