What's wrong with this picture?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: What's wrong with this picture?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 10:44 pm:



Don't tell me, there is more than one size for the pivot ball, and the individuals that put the trans together used the Wrong size?!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 10:46 pm:

New or used u-joint?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 10:56 pm:

another victim of the oversize uni joint? Don't pull it in with the bolts or you risk serious damage. At least 2 others have pulled up new oversize uni joints with the bolts, only to have them get stuck. Remove and measure. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 11:16 pm:

Also, one too many gaskets.

There should be only one gasket - between the fourth main the the pan/hogshead.

The gasket you have between the fourth main and the ring will only create slop between the ball and the fourth main. It should not be there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 11:16 pm:

Robert, there is only supposed to be one gasket. You use the one between the fourth main and the hogs head, and do not need the one between the driveshaft ball cup and the fourth main. In other words use the front one shown in your picture and do not use the rear one in the picture. It is not what is causing your problem, but will cause a loose ball when you finally get it figured out as to the other problem ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:05 am:

K, thanks for the heads up, I will remove that gasket.

On the oversized U-joint comments;

The square end of the U-joint was .004-.005" too large and would not slide into the output shaft without binding. We resolved that issue, but now when we attempt to slide it in, the ball end of the drive shaft stops on the socket of the Hogshead.

The pic is as far as it will go, like the socket on the hogshead is too small?

Is there only 1 size of ball socket/ joint on Model T's? Or could the machine shop have swapped something on this one with the one we gave them to cause this problem?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:27 am:

Have you changed the forth main to a sealed bearing? If so, you must remove 3/8' from ball.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 01:54 am:

Did you make sure that the new ujoint slips ALL THE WAY into the back of the motor super easily since any binding at all will get worse when you have the ujoint under load. I personally would not use the new ujoints and would use an original unit in its place. If the ujoint jambs you will have a serious issue of the pinion gear being possibly pushed into the ring gear and/or the differential gear case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 09:37 am:

Robert, There is only one size of ball. The problem is probably the u-joint...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 09:37 am:

Does the interference occur because the corners don't have enough chamfer, or is the front of the U-joint just machined too large to start with?

I installed a new U-joint onto my freshly rebuilt Ruckstell and would like to know what mods I need to do to it ahead of time to make sure I don't have a similar issue. Right now, I don't have a spare original drive plate to check the fit with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 10:11 am:

R.S. Yes, it would appear that it has been changed to a sealed bearing. Would be awesome if this is all we have to do! Can't imagine how I was dreading having to revisit the freshly set-up driveshaft. (thought I may have to swap one on with a smaller ball end)

John, we measured the original u-joint at .876-.879" and it seemed to fit slightly Loose. So we machined the new one .880" and it's snug, but slides in and out without having to fight with it.

Donnie, Thanks for answering the original question! It is a Great relief to know that this isn't a mistake someone else made and we paid for! lol

Mark, the new u-joint was just too big in dimension, .885". While the stock u-joint was .876-.879"

This is not the first time we have had to remachine/ modify the A/M parts that are vendored for the Model T :-( Real bummer and what a waist of end users time when all it is, is a Lack of attention to detail. Dang, if you're going to make a part, make it right!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 10:17 am:

What type of bearing are you using as a fouth bearing supporting the rear end of the transmission? I recall when I bought a new roller bearing for mine, the directions called for cutting 3/8" from the ball. When I saw this, I returned it and went back to the old style babbited bearing. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:05 am:

Robert, thanks for the dimension information. I just measured the new Lang's U-joint on my Ruckstell and it measures 0.879" x 0.877", so it will likely be OK. Dave Huson is going to sell me a good, used transmission drive plate, when I get it I'll use it to check the fit of the U-joint before I install the Ruckstell on my car. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:51 am:

Must be a '26 or '27. I don't see any rear nuts on those radius rods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:03 pm:

Robert, If you have a sealed fourth main bearing, you more than likely will have to cut off 3/8 of an inch on the front lip of the ball. Or go back to a babitt bearing. You would need to pull the rear end back out, but it would be nice to take a spare torque tube and do a trial fit. Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:52 pm:

Robert--I'm not sure you answered my question about the forth main bearing replacement and the need to cut 3/8 inch off the ball. Donnie Brown is suggesting the same thing. The ball will not fit into the new bearing housing without cutting about 3/8 inch off the ball. Dick C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

The Model T in question is a 1927 coupe.

R.S. I Believe it to be a sealed bearing, because that is what I was looking at before attempting to slide the drive shaft in.

I did not do the hogshead rebuild, it was done by a machine shop.

When I get a chance to pull the drive shaft/diff assemble back out I will take pics of the bearing :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dugger on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 03:45 pm:

What about the rear spring hanger's tilted in the wrong direction???
Worth looking at???
In the above post's I did not see that mentioned!
That could cause a gap!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 04:20 pm:

You don't answer the question of what kind of 4th main you use, but if you are using the babbit 4th the ball should slide all the way in. One of the problems that can happen is if the body is off the car, your rear spring will not be compressed far enough to align the driveshaft with the rear of the transmission. Either remove the shackles so you can move the driveshaft forward, or add weight to the chassis to change the angle of the driveshaft tube. Then everything should go right in. If you remove the shackles, you will need to compress the spring to get them back in.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 04:22 pm:

I re-read the above posts and you did use the sealed 4th main, so that could be the problem. I have not used one, so don't have experience in that area. So follow the advice of those who have done so.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:51 pm:

Robert--Ok. The sealed bearing has nothing to do with "rebuilding the hogs head". If you pull the driveshaft back, you should be able to see the ball end of the torque tube. That ball shape will not go into the cast bearing holder/race when there has not been about 3/8 of an inch removed from the ball shape. Enough said, Dick C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 10:58 am:

Dick C. I understand Exactly what you are saying ;)

I will investigate further and report what I find :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Monday, March 28, 2016 - 10:08 am:

Finally got a chance to take it apart and verify what is in there.

So we proceeded to remove 3/8" from the ball end of the drive shaft tube.

Still need to smooth it out and finish it nice before attempting to assemble it again. Although, even with 3/8" removed, it seems scary when you consider the angle the rear diff is at "unloaded".

I think we will install without the rear leaf and check max movement without interference first to be 100% sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, March 28, 2016 - 11:04 am:

Robert

Maybe just the angle or light of photo, but are the corners of the square female for the u-joint shaft clear, appears some kind of distortion or metal upset?

If using a new reproduction u-joint, the square shaft fitting are machined on high side, you sometimes have to file the square to a nice slip fit for easy of placement in the drive plate shaft hole.

Just a thought, have to do that many times with new u-joints and new drive shafts too.


View of Ford std. Babbitt 4th main ball cap over drive plate shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Mclellan on Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 10:14 am:

Dan, I believe what you're seeing is just grease. I will wipe it down and check.

Now when I took this apart (seems like a long time ago) I could have swore there were 4 bolts with nut on the other side. Looking at it though, it would appear that the lower two holes are threaded and there is casting flash on the other side which would suggest No nuts on those two?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 11:15 am:

Correct, no nuts on the bottom two, which is why they have to be safety wired together. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 11:40 am:

And take precaution in running in those lower 2 bolts, as the weight, angle and difficult approach can lead to an off set thread and strip the threads in the lower crankcase too.

Place the upper first, loose, then place the lower carefully

Sometimes you find crankcase with those lower 4th main threaded holes stripped from loose bolts not wired, or cross threaded and they sometimes are tapped oversize as a fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 03:45 pm:

Update - I earlier posted in this thread:

"Robert, thanks for the dimension information. I just measured the new Lang's U-joint on my Ruckstell and it measures 0.879" x 0.877", so it will likely be OK. Dave Huson is going to sell me a good, used transmission drive plate, when I get it I'll use it to check the fit of the U-joint before I install the Ruckstell on my car. :-) "



I got the good, used transmission drive plate from Dave Huson today. I cleaned it up and tried to slide it on the new Lang's U-joint on my Ruckstell, it doesn't fit.

Looks like I have some work to do to determine where the interference is and how to fix it on the new U-joint. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 04:57 pm:

Mark

Same experience twice with the new repro U-Joint and new repro drive shafts.

New joint wouldn't slip over drive shaft on test. Had to file down the square shaft flats, and radius the corners too. Easy to draw file as the shaft is soft.



Note difference from new on left vs Ford on right



The removed some by grinding / filing down the square ends of the new U-joint, took time as the part is hardened.

But success, parts come together.

Always! always test fit parts prior to assembly :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 05:03 pm:

Those 4th main bearing caps have been responsible for advancing crank breakage. I replace on with a babbit unit after the second crank broke and have had no more problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 06:33 pm:

I haven't heard of any problems yet, but shouldn't the flats be radiused where they end instead of just being squared off on the new shafts? Looks like a good place for a stress crack to develop to me. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 08:16 pm:

Jim Eubanks__I am also aware of the "breaking crank" problem. However, I am told (and I did this recently) that one needs to ensure the pan is in straight so all the bearings are in alien. This is done by using a jig that the pan fits onto and all the bolts used to mount the pan on to the block fit into the jig. My pan was bent at the nose so the crank bearing or the front motor mount was not in line with the rest of the bearings. It was off by 3/8 to 1/2 inch. Heat and a hammer fixed it. It is not so important if you use a babbit bearing because the babbit will wear in rather quickly. With a sealed bearing, it is what it is and won't wear. Just my .02.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 08:34 pm:

David, I would prefer to see a generous radius there also, but the OEM piece in the picture also has a sharp corner that looks like a prime place for a crack to start (pointed out by the arrow in the attached picture).

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 09:54 pm:

Yes Mark, but at least the original one is beveled a bit. That would be better than the square corners I would think. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 10:32 pm:

The offset of the location of the u joint retaining pin hole in the above picture will ruin the drive shaft thrust bearing by opening the clearance. The center line of the drive shaft ball and the center line of the U joint flex have to be in the same plane. The wrong pin hole location will throw them off and the effect is when the drive shaft moves up and down, the shaft is forced into and out of the differential housing. I had this happen to me last year and it ruined a Fun Projects drive shaft bearing kit. Langs sent me a new drive shaft but I had to pay for a new bearing kit. With the drive shaft removed from the housing and the pinion gear installed, measure the distance from the back of the pinion gear to the center line of the U joint retaining pin hole. I think the distance is supposed to be 51 1/2". Check a stock Ford shaft versus a repro shaft. There will be a significant difference.


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