Early 1914 Touring Barn Find

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Early 1914 Touring Barn Find
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 10:53 am:

Just added this early 1914 Touring to our collection. The car was recently acquired from the estate of a gentleman who acquired it over 48 years ago. He understood the importance of keeping it in its present unrestored condition. We will continue to do the same.

From all appearances, the car is an early transitional 1914 model with a 10/04/13 engine number. Serial number is 372083. Odometer shows 7,513 miles. Front wheels were changed sometime during it's life as well as a few accessories added. Truly a time capsule.


















Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:01 am:

Mark,
That's really neat, happy it's yours. Hope I get to see it in the future. Great find!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:07 am:

Thank you Les. As soon as we can make some room over at the garage, the car will be on display for all to enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:09 am:

I like it!

There was one just like that that a guy who lives directly behind me had in his garage for many years. Another local T guy bought it. He asked me why I didn't want it or try to buy it. Simple, I never knew it was there...

I guess the moral of the story is: Talk to your neighbors!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:09 am:

Nice score, Mark but then I'm partial to '14's !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:13 am:

Mark,

Very nice.

Judging by the minimal wear on the pedals, I'd say that 7513 miles is pretty accurate.

What's with the brace under the steering column? Does this car have the steering column "slot" in the firewall?

Nice two-screw Holley Carb, too. I have heard that the adjustable end for the carburetor goes on the steering column end. On my 1911, I also have it at the carburetor end.

Is that a California License tab at the top left corner of the firewall?

It is a really nice looking car.

Any time capsule treasures under the seat?

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:22 am:

Very nice, glad to see it will be preserved as is. The carb is the elusive Holley Model S with the choke shaft vertical and the arm off to the side for the choke pull.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:23 am:

Can we see the timing rod lever? I've read descriptions of the early ball joint arrangement, but I don't recall ever seeing it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:25 am:

WOW.
Thank you for all of the pictures, Mark. If you might have any spare moments, I am sure many of us would enjoy and appreciate any additional views which you could provide.

What a wonderful time capsule. Thanks again. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:45 am:

Fantastic car. I hope you can find some round felloe wheels for the front that can blend in with the rest of the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:45 am:

It is great to keep some of these cars the way they are. I'm trying to put my parts together to look like that but it will never have the charm that yours has.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:54 am:

Keith,

Yes, the firewall does have a slot to install the steering column with the metal bracket installed to cover the slot.

The adjustable end is actually on the carburetor on this car.

California License tab is for 1915.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:11 pm:

Absolutely fantastic .... a dream find. I hope you keep it unrestored.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:16 pm:

Very nice car Mark! It looks just as it should and I agree completely with your plan to keep it as it is. I hope it runs well for you.

Forgive my ignorance - I believe 1915 California automobile license plates were a single year plate with "1915" clearly displayed. They were yellow with black lettering and had "CAL" vertically on the left and "1915" vertically on the right with the individual license number horizontally in between.

So, what's the story with the 1915 "Registered Motor Vehicle" tab fastened to the dash? I don't believe I've ever seen one before. Isn't it redundant to the plate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:38 pm:

It appears to have some kind of accessory *shocks*, at lest at the rear...what are they? Also, what happened to the headlight switch hole on the firewall...even though it has gas lights?
Great machine....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:39 pm:

Larry,

I have one of the original front wheels that came off the car; however, I will need to find another with similar patina. The rear portion of the driver's side front fender does have some damage on the underside as if the something may have happened causing the wheel to come into contact


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 12:47 pm:

John,

The car does have accessory shocks front and rear unknown manufacturer.

Unsure what the hole in the firewall was for. Car is equipped with the original gas headlights.

Henry,

Good question. The car has 1914 front and rear plates; however, the registration dash tag is for 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

Very nice car, Mark. Glad to hear you'll keep it original.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 02:06 pm:

Those are "anti-shock" brand accessory shocks I believe, heres a link of pics

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/93538.html?1243564246


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 02:08 pm:

Any body mfg numbers under the front seat? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 03:54 pm:

Hi Ed,

Those shown in the post look identical except no name present in the top support brackets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 04:47 pm:

Nice, Nice, Nice, Nice!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:17 pm:

Mark, what a lovely find! While looking for a matching front wheel, might you also need a coilbox switch with the brass plate on the front? On our Canadian sourced cars, the covered switch came years later.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little South Paris, Maine on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:44 pm:

Just out of curiosity, could you post the number on the patent plate? I'm just curious as to how close it is to the engine number.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:57 pm:

Number on the patent plate read 361342.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

Allan,

Coil box appears to be the one which came on the car unless it was replaced very early in its life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 06:05 pm:

It's the correct "box" Mark but the switch should be the composition one ( might be - hard to distinguish in the photo) and the face plate should be brass - maybe it's just tarnished ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 06:21 pm:

Steve,

No, it is all steel. Maybe replaced early on?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Matheny on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 06:28 pm:

Wow, nice purchase!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 06:31 pm:

Possibly - the composition ones are quite often cracked from age, vibration (really ? - no !) weather, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 07:49 pm:

Interesting note re the carb. throttle rod with adjustable end...this car, and a pic of one in the encyclopedia show the adjustable end at the carb, yet the judging guide says it's attached at the steering column end, which on my '13 is where it's at. Just wondering WHICH way is truly correct?

Very nice find Mark! Do the sidelamps have the "solid" rear panel with no red jewel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 08:35 pm:

Here is a pic of a 1914 California license.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

Fantastic car. It has the 13 style block also with the removable square-hole freeze plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 09:29 pm:

Great find! I like looking at pictures of original cars. It even has those engine pans that were discussed a few days ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 09:40 pm:

GOLLEEE! The horn is mounted right side up! Congratulations on an incredible and enviable find! Love the Holley Model S carb. Just out of curiosity, will a magnet stick to the intake manifold? Other than the cast water intake fitting; is there any other high-headed bolts on the engine? And I wonder when someone felt the need to install a fuel line cutoff near the carb? That touring needs a Vintage Ford article. Thanks for sharing Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fuller on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 09:52 pm:

Mark,

The coil box switch is very interesting. My touring is a late '13 / early '14 and has the exact same switch that your car has. It has been in my family since the early 1950's and is original and was very complete and untouched when my grandfather found it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, March 21, 2016 - 10:51 pm:

A GOOD SON WOULD GIVE THE CAR TO HIS DAD!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 12:12 am:

I let you go with me. Wasn't that thoughtful of me?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 02:02 am:

I love these patina rigs. WAY neater than a trailer queen perfecto-mobile ! Thanks for sharing ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Findlay on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 02:46 am:

Wow. Look at those grins!!! Are they happy or what. You'd think they just won the lottery. I think this might even be better.
Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 08:38 am:

Congratulations! What a great car. And yes as was mentioned up above – it would make a great photo article etc. for the “Vintage Ford.” And yes, please let us know if it has a letter on the front or rear heel panel and also if it has a letter and or numbers on the front of the front seat wooden frame.

Below are the numbers from a 1914 Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette and referred to as Pontiac in many of the Ford USA records).





Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 09:04 am:

As I understand the dash disc business, when you bought your license plate back in those days, you also got a dash disc with the same number. You were to tack that to your (wooden) dash. That's how the police could verify that the plate you had on the car was the correct one for that car. Arkansas had the same system; I suppose other states did as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 09:11 am:

George, re the horn mounting, I'm sure Royce is happy to see that too! :-) On that note of correctness...what about it not being black/brass? I have a '13, correctly mounted I might add, that is also all brass. Wonder if anybody can attest to whether or not an all brass horn on a '13-'14 is "OK"...judging rule book says black/brass, I sure hate to have to paint mine as frankly I like the all brass look, but then.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mario Brossard on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 10:15 am:

Awesome barn find. I'm really happy you keep it as is. It is absolutely fantastic for the following generation.

Chapeau Mark!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 10:35 am:

Heartiest congratulations! _That's quite a find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 10:39 am:

Does the car have '13 front fenders? What about the muffler? Is the exhaust outlet pipe curved or straight? I agree with Steve, that at some point the switch was changed, but they aren't that difficult to find. Fantastic find! Keep posting more photos!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 02:02 pm:

I've spent most of the morning photographing all the items you all have asked questions about. Hope to have them posted soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 03:22 pm:

Mark - I suppose you realize that you are sort of "digging yourself a hole" so to speak, right? All those detail photos you have been taking this morning just make for one more good reason that a "VF" magazine article would sure make sense! Those photos represent a good portion of the work for the article, right?

This thread and some of the details folks have already commented on raise a few questions in my mind too! Someone mentioned that as original as the car is, someone in the past, felt the need to install a gas line fuel shut-off valve just back of the carburetor, which, by the way, I consider a good idea. However, that great detail photo you show of the carburetor and shut-off valve does make me wonder if the fuel line is still the original brass, or if that was replaced with the all-to-common copper tubing???

Whatever the case, just one more point of interest for that "VF" article Mark,....hint, hint,.......harold,....( ; ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 04:49 pm:

You are right Harold, it would make sense going to all the work to photograph and post the answers to all these questions. If I can find a bit more time, I just might consider preparing something for the VF magazine. I'll add the copper vs brass inquiry to the pile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 06:00 pm:

All the Model T bulb horns of all years are all brass. The one on your '13 would have been painted black originally Tim, except the screen and its rim.

I hope no one ever restores the car - it is a great document to study for Model T owners in the future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 06:28 pm:


quote:

Wonder if anybody can attest to whether or not an all brass horn on a '13-'14 is "OK"




Hi Tim - The bulb horn on my '14 was never painted or at least it appears to have never been painted and that look is OK with me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 07:56 pm:

nice car Mark! to me it looks perfect!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 07:56 pm:

The brass horn is all brass and unpainted.

Head, side and tail lamps are all John Brown black painted metal and brass. Rear lamp Model 115, Side Lamps Model 110, Headlamps unreadable.

Body plate was located under the front seat (#611188734) No letter is stamped in the front seat kick panel.

Gas tank cover under the seat is hinged (two).

Muffler is wrapped with cast ends, stamped metal mounting brackets and curved tail pipe extension.

Looks as if the rear tail lamp was modified with an electric bulb installed along side the burner. Brake light switch was added to the transmission cover.


































Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 08:11 pm:

Gas line is brass to the shut off valve and then copper from the valve to the carburetor inlet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 08:15 pm:

Actually, upon closer inspection, body number appears to be 614188734. The third number from the left appears to be a faint number 4.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 09:24 pm:

My question about body maker is the horn bulb placement is the same as my 7/3/14,and i wondered if it varied by body maker?? Thank you.Bud in Wheeler Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 09:41 pm:

Body number starting with 614 indicates a body built in June 1914..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 09:45 pm:

A fun article would be a combination of a an original 14 Canadian car with the same patina built about the same time period. We have it and it looks like the twin sister to your car. It has about 8500 miles on it and I took the speedo off as it was making a terrible noise a few years ago. It would be a wonderful comparison article for the VF. I'm not tech savvy enough to post pictures here though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 10:28 pm:

Royce,

Interesting on the body number being for June, 1914. Who was the manufacturer? Would a June, 1914 body been utilized on an October, 1913 engine? Quite a spread in months.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 11:00 pm:

Mark, did you look for a letter stamped into the rear seat heel panel? My 1914 touring body has a big "B" on the rear panel, but none on the front seat panel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 11:02 pm:

What a great model T. Nice find!! Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 11:30 pm:

Jim,

I have yet to check the backseat or the contents under the seat but I will as soon as I get more time


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 07:17 am:

Mark,

One of the great things about photos is others can look at the part also. You posted:



It may only be dirt, but looking at that photo I think I see a "B".



Of course sometimes we see what we want to see. When you have a chance would you please double check that area for us. If it is a "B" then the body was made by Beaudett (also spelled Beaudett and referred to as Pontiac in most of the Ford USA records). And the body tag also looks like one used by Beaudett.

Again, great car and the Canadian & USA 1914 comparison article would be fantastic.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 07:37 am:

Engines were assembled and serialized then shoved in a room. They flowed out of the room in random order. That explains some of the date discrepancies we see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 09:51 am:

Hi Hap,

It does appear to be a faint "B". I will check again and get back to you. Also, the rear door panels have a storage pouch. Most 13/14 touring bodies I have seen do not have them. Was this something common with the Beaudett body only? I'll post a picture soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Sanford - Lucas, TX on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 10:28 am:

Great find and great pictures. I have a couple of questions:

What is mounted above the data plate and the steering column? Was that for a registration card and was this required in California?

What is the strap on the bottom steering column bolt nearest the engine/head (8th picture)?

Does it have the same style hinges on the wood shelves which are under both the front and rear seat cushions? The picture of the one over the gas tank is not as clear as the rear seat.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 11:17 am:

Unsure the purpose of the metal holder located above the steering column. It was possible to hold some document.

The strap on the firewall covers the notch cut in the firewall for installing and removing the steering column. The car was likely shipped by rail disassembled and then reassembled upon arrival.

Have yet to check the rear cover or contents of the rear storage compartment. I'll check the cover for hinges and photograph the process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 11:44 am:

Next time you sand off a patent plate, be more careful! You scratched the hell out of yours. Also, would you post a photo of the speedometer drive? I don't know why they mounted the swivel up front, when there should be a hole in the spindle arm, or is there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 11:56 am:

Hello Mark:
Great find. Is the mounting base of this horn the round versus eliptic style? Just curious seeing the stud, and nut versus screw mounting.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Gagel, Orange,Ct on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 12:00 pm:

Congratulations on a great find. I just looked at my body plate, and it has a similar font. If you look close at your plate you will notice that it is stamped 6.14.188734, with the dots centered in the plate (the first is in the center of the 1).
I just found an original '15 touring the same condition. It came out of a dairy barn in the town just north of me. I will try to also keep it original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 12:50 pm:

Charlie,

I assume you have a 1914.

What is the car number on your dash patent plate and body tag number?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 01:00 pm:

Charlie,

The mounting base for the horn appears oval with studs and nuts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 03:04 pm:

Thanks Mark
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Gagel, Orange,Ct on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 05:31 pm:

Ken, sent you a pm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 06:08 am:

Putting a birth-date onto some of these cars isn't easy. At some point, if we want to take note of their special anniversaries, we just have to choose a reasonable date and go with it. Choosing that reasonable date can get tricky for some cars. This '14 could be really tricky.
Most T hobbyists with any such interest just go with the engine number translated to a production date and hope that is close enough. But enough clear cases have been found, what with production changes, "first in=last out" warehousing, shipping delays to branch assembly plants, and replacement engines, that engine production date may be really close to right on a lot of cars? But a lot of other cars it won't be close at all.
Working on my "Spring '15 runabout" has gotten me interested in the various serial and date codes on model Ts. My runabout was split apart and pieces tossed to the winds. The best date-code the original remains of my car can offer is the Beaudette plate (so similar to this touring's body number plate) that begins 2.15.XXXXX for February of '15. Since my car no longer has its original engine serial number, that body plate is the only thing I have to go on.
Over the past couple years, I have read a few discussions on this site pertaining to these body tags, and their relation to engine serial numbers where available. The tendency as I recall from several cars 1914 through 1917 has been that engine number follows body date by about two to four months on several of them. A couple of them followed by about five months, and one (a 1917 as I recall), the engine serial number followed the body date by a full seven months. These all on cars reasonably believed to have their original engines.
Unfortunately, there is rarely a guarantee that an engine in a model T Ford has NOT been changed at some time in the past hundred years. Back in the day, engines were changed often, and for a lot of reasons.
A car leaving the factory with an engine built eight months before the body was built would have been unusual. But as Royce said, it would be possible.

Somehow, we need to begin a good list of cars that have survived intact enough to provide two or more serial numbers that seem to have originated together on the same car. Key numbers of course should be a believed to be original engine serial number for any model T. "Car" numbers were stamped onto the firewall plate from the beginning of T production on up into 1915. These numbers started off in 1909 often matching with the engine number, but slowly those two numbers drifted further and further apart, and by 1913 were generally way off. At some time during 1915, Ford simply stopped putting the number on that brass firewall plate.
Body numbers were put on most '10s era bodies, and many in the '20s as well. I know that my '24 coupe has a number on its floorboard riser. Most closed body styles apparently did have numbers, which may survive if most of the original wood survives. Touring and runabout bodies of the '20s may or may not have a body serial number depending upon who built it (and whether it survived or not). Body numbers would need to be tracked by body style, and body manufacturer if known.
Different body styles, and different body manufacturers will have different numberings. Tracking them all could discover some interesting trends, and help to date many cars more accurately.



Mark C, Wonderful car you got there. If I were a little closer, I wouldn't mind spending a few hours looking it over closely myself!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 09:51 am:

Charles W.,

There is a 10,741 lag of the dash tag "Ford Car No." behind the engine serial number. That is relatively close to the "lag" of "Ford Car No. 300,000" built on July 16, 1913, in Bruce's Book, Page 506. Obviously, the "Ford Car No. 300,000" was the dash tag number and had nothing to do with the engine serial number which on that car was probably about 312,000 +/-.

This car confirms the approximate 11,000 +/- lag on the dash tags behind the engine serial numbers during this time period.

The dash tags were numbered with a numbering head like the following. They were done sequentially and stacked in order in trays at the Ford Detroit assembly plant. It would have been a side operation not done at the point of assembly.



I have two of those numbering heads and presses used to number over 9,000,000 tags years ago.

I can understand why Ford quit trying to keep the dash tag "Ford Car. No," numbering operation in sync with the serial numbers on the engines. You would have had to be running back and forth to the tag numbering department to make a "one off" every time something happened to an engine or dash tag. Hence, "the car number will no longer match the serial number"...

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 10:08 am:

Over 100 years later is everyone sure things are the way the car left the point of assembly?? It sound's strange if only to me that Ford had that many engines built ahead?? No,i'm not trying to offend anyone i'm just asking a question! Bud on stand by power in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 10:09 am:

Note that the engine serial number corresponds to November 13, 1913 according to Bruce McCalley's black book.

10 4 13 is the casting date, not the "engine number" as stated in the first post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 11:23 am:

I wonder if the bolts in your horn were added later? The horn has obviously been removed at some point, because there doesn't appear to be any black paint on it. I see the muffler has the bend in the rear outlet pipe, but is it tapered, or was it replaced a some point? It's difficult to tell from your photo. It also appears that your rear spring has been removed. The springs leafs don't look to me like they were re-assembled in the correct order, meaning the fit.
You have a great car, and I would be proud to own such a car. Let us know if you agree with my observations!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 11:55 am:

We often forget that clubs like the Horseless Carriage Club, the Antique Automobile Club of America, and the Vintage Motor Car Club of America all started in the 1930's. Brass era cars were an oddity by then, and people started collecting and restoring them.

I don't suspect the engine has been replaced, it most likely falls in with Wayne's last in / first out statement. The rest of the car is consistent with later 1914 production, as per the date on the body tag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 12:00 pm:

This is a really interesting car, and I have been enjoying the pictures immensely.

Now I would like to add something to the confusion regarding this car. Mark's photos show that it has a two-piece driveshaft tube. The "Releases" or Record of Change Cards on the drive shaft tube that are in Accession 1701 at the Benson Ford Research Center indicate that the one-piece drive shaft tube replaced the two-piece drive shaft tube in early May, 1914. In fact, given how few 1914 first half 1914 calendar year cars actually have a two-piece drive shaft tube, including my March 1914 touring car barn find (literally a barn find), I have wondered if two-piece drive shaft tubes were discontinued earlier in 1914 than May.

Yet the body appears to have a Fisher Body plate indicating the body was made in June, 1914.

I have no idea what this means. Maybe the chassis was assembled in December 1913, and maybe not. Maybe the chassis was set aside for 6 months before a June body was assembled to it. Or maybe not.

At this stage in my lifelong study of the Model T, one conclusion I have reached is that not all things Model T are knowable. This car is what it is. It's a great car, and let's enjoy it as it is.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 12:01 pm:


quote:

Also, the rear door panels have a storage pouch. Most 13/14 touring bodies I have seen do not have them. Was this something common with the Beaudett body only?




Hi Mark - My 14 doesn't have the storage pouches in the rear door panels but I have no way of knowing if those panels have been replaced at some point.

By the way, I found a "DMC" stamped at the base of the ragtop bow iron rigging. Might that be for Dodge Motor Company on a Beaudette body - or something completely different?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Woolf on Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 08:59 pm:

Mark,

Is the upholstery leather?

Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Friday, March 25, 2016 - 05:44 pm:

I have talked to two separate owners of "barn fresh" 1914 cars who indicate there horns are also unpainted. Do we have any records on file that would verify the horns were painted with brass trim? I believe this horn has never been painted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Friday, March 25, 2016 - 05:50 pm:

I spoke to another gentleman in New York state who owns a similar unmolested 1914 Touring. He indicated there is also about a five month difference between his car's serial number and the body number. Interesting indeed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Friday, March 25, 2016 - 10:54 pm:

Mark

By any chance will your car be on display in Bakersfield?
Now I have to refresh my memory on my 14T It sports an engine casting date of 10/28/13. Unfortunately the engine number and body number are not handy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 12:19 am:

Mark,
Our 13 touring also has a Calif. Registration plate (Same Date) like yours on the dash. Also has the metal frame for keeping the registration on the dash located like yours.
Our car came out of a garage in San Diego in the late 40's. It never had a frame off restoration, the body was painted with lacquer over the original paint. The lacquer is pealing but the original paint is still sticking to the metal.
Yours is a great find, please keep it as is...don't restore the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 10:04 am:

Bill,

Dad and I will be attending the Bakersfield Swap Meet; however, the car will remain at home.

Les,

Initial urge was to remove the accessory shocks front and rear and replace the front spring with the correct one. Also, install a new top and upholstery. After much consideration, I have decided against this. The car should and will remain as it was found with the exception of the front wheels (Later square wood fellow). I have one original front wheel. I am in need of locating another with similar patina.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 10:08 am:

This weekend I plan of exploring the rear seating area. I will take photographs throughout the process and post them for everyone's evaluation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 10:11 am:

Also, I located a set of Champion X spark plugs inside the car with "Ford" printed below the X. I believe these may have been replaced by the AC plugs currently installed in the engine. How rare are the Ford script Champion plugs and what are their value?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 10:22 am:

Mark,

The Ford Script Champion X plugs were made from around 1925 - 1942. They are pretty common. Good ones sell for $15 - $20. NOS ones in the box can fetch $20- $35 depending on which color box and how good the boxes are.

Here is one from about 1930:


This one is from about 1940:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 10:42 am:


quote:

He indicated there is also about a five month difference between his car's serial number and the body number. Interesting indeed.




My engine serial number indicates a production date of Sept 25, 1913 (a little more than a week ahead of yours) but the body number date is January 1914. This caused me to wonder if the engine had been replaced at some point (and maybe it has) but I guess it's just as likely that it's the original motor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 10:49 am:


quote:

Can we see the timing rod lever?




Hi Steve - Here's a photo of mine. Yeah, a little ball and socket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william bryant on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 11:14 am:

Very interesting posts. I have a very similar T that has an 8 20 13 block casting date (and built 2 days later), the Beaudette body has a 12-13 date. I purchased this T in 1950 in pretty much unmolested condition (it did have a 1915 diff & mag headlights). It appears it was put up in the barn I found it in 1928 by the original owner.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 04:55 pm:

William,

Ford considered the chassis a "built car" and fixed the dash tag to the firewall. Here is a photo of 1000 cars which are chassis and undoubtedly the dash tag is already attached to them.



Some were shipped as chassis without a body being earmarked for attachment. Ford did account for the chassis in the production count.

If you have the dash tag original to your car, it will apparently be about 11 or 12,000 lower than the serial number of the engine.

Several folks have contacted me with similar time spans and it seems the Beaudette touring car bodies were about four months behind the chassis for August - September they are mounted to.

There is any number of explanations but I am beginning to wonder if the "12-13" in your case may have been a "purchase order block" to be delivered for 12-13, December 1913 production. Essentially, a purchase order control number and not actually a date of manufacture by Beaudette. Otherwise, why not 8-20-13 like the block casting date in your example?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Bryant on Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 10:35 am:

Ken,

Your suggestion of the "production order" for Beaudette seems a reasonable suggestion. In my case the body# 327250 is 4649 lower than the motor number. Since it is much less than the expected 11-12K do you place any significance to that?

Regards,
Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 11:30 am:

Does the rh spindle arm have the tapered hole for the L arm? I can't imagine why it wouldn't, but it could have a straight one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Alexander in Albion, Maine on Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 12:01 pm:

Seems as tho' this would be a good subject for a MTFCA Times story. All these original cars are very interesting. RvW II ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Peterson on Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 12:16 pm:

Hi, Here is another all original 1914. It was stored for about 80 years. It is a local car I bought about 7 years ago. Original paint, interior and top. Odometer shows 4,000 miles and thought to be original miles. One of the original tires are in the picture. Still has the original front floor mat. 3-25-14 casting date. Not even a dent or rust spot. pixpixpixpix


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 08:11 pm:

Bill Bryant,

Do you know the date on your transmission stub shaft? Has to be apart to see it but this is what it looks like.



Most of these engines in this time period seem to be built about four weeks after they were cast but anything can happen.

Are you getting the 8-22-13 date of the build from Bruce's Book against your serial number?

Bob just posted some pictures of a pretty car. Can we see more?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Bryant on Monday, March 28, 2016 - 11:05 am:

Ken,

The engine/trans was rebuilt in 2006 but I was unaware of the stub shaft date at the time and didn't record it.

I DID use the build date based on Bruce's book.

I was in high school in 1950 when I bought the T and unfortunately the thought of taking pictures of "the old car" did not seem important, much to my regret. I have not "modified" the car in any way really except for paint and a starter. My daughter will be getting the T when I am "done" with it, she lives near Dallas.

Be happy to provide any details you would like.

Bill B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Monday, March 28, 2016 - 08:59 pm:

Boy Mark, What a find you have. I have enjoyed you photos and notes greatly. Thanks so much!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Thursday, March 31, 2016 - 11:46 pm:

Mark

Just to confuse the experts even more I just checked the numbers on my early 14 T
Engine casting 10-24-13
Engine # 361466
Body # 61 4789742

My T is a Calif car also and seems to have been born within a month of yours. It would be interesting to park them side by side and see what differences they have. It seems we both have body numbers that don't align with the engine number build dates.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Friday, April 01, 2016 - 05:58 am:

Hey, Mark, could you post a close up picture of the gas generator on that awesome barn find? Is it a Jno. Brown tank and headlamps?


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