Do You Use A Hot Air Pipe On Your Model T Carburetor?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Do You Use A Hot Air Pipe On Your Model T Carburetor?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:44 am:

Do you keep it on all the time or just certain times of the year?
Do you consider them necessary or not? Thanks.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:48 am:

Mine is hanging on the wall next to a water pump!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyrone Thomas - Topeka KS on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:50 am:

lol Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:08 am:

Slows the car way down. Have not found any use for them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By wayne thompson on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:20 am:

I think it depends on the humidity in your area. Here in Tennessee where the humidity is very high I must use a hot air pipe to keep the carb from freezing up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:21 am:

It's on all the time. Keeps big pieces of debris from entering the intake. Closest thing to an air cleaner and its original equipment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:25 am:

Muffles the carb swoosh sound of the air intake on open throttle.

After chasing rattles and squeaks, nice to have a quiet carb too. :-)

Have always used 'em.

A Ford isn't complete with the engine dust pans and hot air pipes!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:57 am:

Yes, always. I don't enjoy experiencing carb icing while driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 09:05 am:

Wanye's right. It's actual useage depends on the weather conditions in your area. Like the hand crank on a starter car. It might not be needed at all except under certain conditions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kirk Peterson on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 10:04 am:

They help my cars when it's below freezing
Plus living at 7000 ft does not help model t or human breathing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 10:55 am:

We feel we must use the stove on our six cylinder (Model K) Ford. The number six cylinder is notorious for running rich,, and the extra heat seems to help. The difference is very noticeable, with the carb icing up, even in warm weather, but warm to the touch with the stove, even at near zero temps.

The Ford manual says to remove the heat pipe in the summer. I realize fuel may not have been as good "in the day," but it still seems to help get a more consistent mixture to all cylinders with the pipe. I am sure there is a little added resistance because of additional distance the air is drawn from, but I doubt much.

view from underneath, carb to the right, choke wire and heat tube:


top of the carb (Buffalo) on the right, hot air pipe coming up along the tailpipe on the left. My home made manifold is a piece of tin and a hose clamp (period correct :-)):


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 10:58 am:

Someone needs to do a study on hot air pipes. I started to do it once at the Benson, but after 15 or so different styles, gave up! Yes, there are that many, perhaps more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 11:21 am:

The consensus to the question so far appears to be..........
No consensus!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rolf Oehman on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 11:31 am:

The hot air pipe cured my engine. I had problems with fouling plugs (#1and2).Had gone trough all other possible causes like compression (new rings, fresh cut valve seats), ignition, manifold leaks . It made a world of difference with the hot air pipe. Running strong now, and all 4 plugs are light tan color.
But as many have mentioned, it is different for every engine, and I live in rather cold humid climate in Scandinavia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 11:40 am:

Here in the California Central Valley, where most of my T driving is in summer (hot and dry), I've never used a hot air pipe. I don't even have one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 12:03 pm:

I like a air cleaner!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 01:37 pm:

I have no experience with T intakes freezing on my model T s but i have had that with other older vehicles.. I plan to put one on my 27 roaster when the vaporizer comes off. I will be putting the NH on in the vaporizers place. It does not start as quick as my 26 roadster p/u and from reading on the forum for the last 4-5 years the NH is the way to go!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 02:21 pm:

I don't run them, but I've never noticed any difference either way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

This hot air pipe question keeps coming up it seems. Some say you need it, some say you don't. My own personal opinion is that there are some rare cases (humidity) where it is needed, but more cases where it is not needed. Because of the SOME CASES, Henry chose to put the hot air pipe on. Royce has repeatedly stated that it is not needed. I believe there is a more complex answer than that, and I'm hoping that Royce, as an aircraft mechanic would elaborated on this, but consider,......

Small aircraft have been historically been equipped with a cockpit control for some kind of "carburetor heat" when needed. "WHEN NEEDED" is the key here. I don't think that many (if any) aircraft engines were equipped with a "fixed" hot air pipe to apply carburetor heat continuously, but did offer some means to apply carb heat "when needed".

I think Henry Ford and his engineers recognized the fact that on rare occasions, carb heat was needed. So, in my opinion, for that reason, Henry equipped the very cheap hot air pipe, probably knowing that most of the time, it was not needed, and wouldn't hurt performance too much under normal operating conditions, but would address the rare occasion when carb heat was needed. I think it's a simple matter of Henry knowing that any mechanism to apply carb heat on the rare cases when it was needed via some sort of dash control would be expensive, and Henry being Henry, opted for the cheap hot air pipe instead, because that solution was so much cheaper than some form of carb heat control, whether manually controlled by driver or automated. Again, my "opinion" FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 03:36 pm:

The more air you get in the cylinder the more power the engine can develop. Hot air is less dense than cold air so the hot air pipe reduces the air mass in the cylinder. However the warmer air helps atomize the fuel and improves carburetion.

I run them on both my T's and cars run well and go faster than you should with two wheel brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 03:38 pm:

The hot air pipe is useful in preventing carburettor icing, which makes the engine run poorly and slows down the car. As posted above, this "freezing up" occurs only during certain atmospheric conditions. For those of you who have never experienced this phenomenon, well, you've lived a sheltered life. It IS real. I have encountered it several time on other people's Ts. I keep the pipe on the car all of the time.

Here is a picture of an icey manifold caused by the absence of the hot air pipe, and yes, the engine did stumble and not run well.



Here is an option for those who do not want to remove the pipe, but do wish for more airflow AND want to lessen the amount of hot air to the carburetor:

Open



Closed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 04:36 pm:

That's pretty slick, Bill !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 05:03 pm:

Ted said it very succinctly. Here is the techie version:

Hot air contains less oxygen than cold air. Your engine runs on an Air / Fuel mixture, with air being the main component. Your engine runs best somewhere on a scale between most powerful mixture and safest lean mixture.

If you heat the air you must reduce the amount of fuel that can be carried in the air fuel mixture, thus the air fuel mixture is less able to produce power, because it contains fewer molecules of both fuel and air.

All this assumes that the fuel atomizes properly, and that there is no tendency for carb icing. I hear people say they have experienced carb ice in a Model T and am extremely skeptical. I do believe they might see moisture on the outside of an intake, or even frost. I can't see how they are getting carb ice when I have been unable to under every imaginable driving condition from snow storms to high humidity and a variety of altitudes, states, and seasons.

Carb or intake ice would shut off the engine completely.

I can believe that you could see an improvement in the way a Model T runs by heating a too lean mixture. Adding heat would richen the mixture, and thus make more power than a too lean mixture, even though the engine is not making the amount power that would be available if you simply fixed whatever it is that is actually causing the lean condition.

Guesses would be dirty carburetor, fuel flow problems, or a pin hole in an intake manifold causing the lean condition that clears up when adding a heat tube.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 05:51 pm:

Wife and I were on our way to the St. Louis Christmas parade some years back when I owned a Tudor that did not have a preheater. It was cold out and the closer we got to downtown the worse the car ran. Wife even turned to me and asked if we were going to make it. Got into our position and opened the hood and found the carb and intake had more ice than the picture above. About five minutes later the heat from the engine melted the ice and the car ran just fine. I now keep a preheater on both my cars.

Steven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 06:00 pm:

Yes Steven,

If you been there and done that then you have earned the tee shirt.

Hundreds of thousands of piston engined aircraft with carb heaters can't be wrong.

Your milage may (will, depending upon where you live) vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 06:06 pm:

Thanks Royce,....a lot to think about there!

And Bill Harper, I can't help but think that ol' Henry just might have done well to spend a few more pennies and offer something like that idea of yours! One thing's sure,.....if all Model "T's had been equipped with something like your modification, every "T" owner would have had a "choice", hot intake air or not, and this topic would then probably not come up on our forum as often, or maybe not at all,...haha,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 06:13 pm:

Bill, my opinion, and again, Royce would be the one to comment here, but I think the difference between the rare occasions where MINOR "icing" due to humidity or whatever with Model T's is nothing, compared to that experienced by aircraft engines, which can encounter conditions which are so much more dangerous due to SEVERE icing that can actually choke the intake severely enough to actually cause the engine to stall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 06:20 pm:

Bill, my opinion, and again, Royce would be the one to comment here, but I think the difference between the rare occasions where MINOR "icing" due to humidity or whatever with Model T's is nothing, compared to that experienced by aircraft engines, which can encounter conditions which are so much more dangerous due to SEVERE icing that can actually choke the intake severely enough to actually cause the engine to stall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 06:21 pm:

Oops,....doubled up again,....sorry!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 06:44 pm:

Bill's idea is good. Many carburetors had ports that could be opened along those lines. I have thought about something like that. Yes I have a home made hot air pipe on my Schebler. There is not much resistance to incoming air and it just pulls enough heat to warm the carb and intake. Many if not all cars have some type heat stove even today. Some are hot water or a tube running from a shield on the exhaust manifold with a thermostatically controlled door that when the engine gets up to temp the heat side closes and the fresh air port opens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:17 pm:

Bill, I like your preheater. Is rattling a problem? :0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:32 pm:

Yes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:51 pm:

I appreciate the approval of the adjustable hot air pipe, but I did not make it. I found it at a flea market. As best I can tell, it is store bought, not home made. It has no maker's mark that I can find. I have never seen another one and I've never seen a period ad for this pipe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 07:55 pm:

Bill - Wonder if it's possible that you have an aftermarket accessory that Jay does not have,....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 07:03 am:

James, what I meant was does the preheater add to the already generous selection of Model T rattles. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 08:21 am:

Eric I was just answering the title of the thread. But my answer to your question is yes also lol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ernie Williams on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 09:22 am:

Here is an old thread on using a hot air pipe, I thought the dyno chart was interesting. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/282097.html?1346928717


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 09:44 am:

I love it when someone tries to use aircraft to "prove" that a Model T needs a hot air pipe.

Use of carburetor heat in light aircraft is regulated by the approved Aircraft Flight Manual for the type rating approved by the FAA. In general carb heat is only used on landing or if icing conditions are indicated. Carb heat is not typically used in cruise, again unless there is a suspected icing condition.

Carb heat hurts fuel economy and power. There are flight manual restrictions on power settings when carb heat is in use. Often engine damage results when carb heat is used improperly. An example of carb heat causing damage is use during a takeoff on a hot day. This can and does usually result in detonation, which can and does result in piston damage and / or valve seat damage from lean mixture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 01:12 pm:

I do not use a hot air pipe, but I do use an air filter, one of the most important parts of an internal combustion engine. I amazes me that so few Ts have air filters. In some regions, you can get away with out an air filter, but in a area where the soil is silica based, running a vehicle with out an air filter is insure premature failure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 08:28 pm:

I think the Aeronca C-3 had a fixed hot air pipe. Of course, we are probably talking Model T era airplane here. Seems the aircraft and automobile industries both abandoned fixed carb heaters and certainly for the reasons mentioned above.

Having said all that, I run hot air pipes on both of our T's and have STILL had carb icing on one of them. I imagine it would have been even worse with out it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

My car has always run well year round with its hot air pipe installed, but I may experiment this summer with removing the pipe and installing an air filter.

I looked around online for an air filter that might look more period than the current vendor offerings. The ideal would have been to find an original United swirl-type period filter (like Jay runs on his 1915), but I wasn't able to find one for sale on line.

I did however, find and order this filter, shown below.

When it comes in, I'm going to paint it black and figure out a way to connect it to my carburetor.

pic1

pic2

(Message edited by cudaman on April 06, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 09:08 pm:

Mark,
Looks good. Please show us pics once you have it on. Your opinion on performance will be good too.
Thanks,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 09:21 pm:

FWIW I have driven my 15 T with a NH carb for 4 years without a hot air pipe. Temps have varied from 25 deg to 95 deg and humidity from 50 to 100%.

No sign of icing yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 09:37 pm:

The thing I like about the motorcycle air filter that Lang's sell is it is easy to remove to service and you can remove it if you are going to show the car so no one can say it is not original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 12:26 am:

Wonder if there ever was an oil bath accessory air filter for a T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 12:44 pm:

I recall reading on this site many years ago that the hot air pipe was originally designed to help the inferior kerosene based gas of the day, vaporize more easily and burn more efficiently. made sense to me, but I still rum with mine. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 02:17 pm:

A factor that plays into whether or not the carburetor on my 1904 Model A freezes is the volume of fuel passing through the carburetor.

On hot humid days, if I venture up a long hill while traveling at a good clip I found that more often than not the carburetor would freeze up and the engine would stall. When this happened I would coast to a stop, which didn't take long going uphill, and wait about a minute before restarting the engine and carrying on. During the one minute stop the carburetor would thaw as there was plenty of heat from the engine and nearby exhaust manifold.

I installed a home made temporary heat pipe and no longer encounter the perils of a frozen carburetor.

And, in the for what it's worth category, the carburetor never froze while expecting less of the car than one does while zipping up a long grade in high gear. Said differently, I never encountered a freezing problem while driving under typical conditions.

So, as stated in the first sentence above, my experience suggests that speed / volume of fuel consumption at any given time plays into the equation of whether or not a carburetor will freeze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 04:23 pm:

Ford says take it off in warm weather. Remember, Ford's idea of warm weather in Detroit Michigan, and Ford's idea of cold weather might be different than what you experience where you operate your Model T.

I've posted this many times before - here it is again.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 04:48 pm:

I use the stove on my '19 ('23 engine) Touring but I use an oddball Toquet carburetor on my '27 Tudor and love it.
The only "adjustment" on it is the choke.
I don't use a stove with this one and no matter what the weather conditions are it always run perfectly.

http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=331880&post=548440#POST548440


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 05:09 pm:

I have experienced carb icing in my planes several times. It reduces power but has never choked the engine and stopped it. Of course, this happens normally when gliding down between cloud layers where the humidity is high and the idling engine has the highest intake vacuum. The onset was fast and the instinctive recovery, (pulling the hot air knob), solved the issue just as fast.
The hot air is only used when idling, never at full power, hence the plane has a lever that automatically applies hot air every time the throttle is reduced.
this makes me think that a stove would be useful if it had a butterfly valve that could apply or disengage hot air as needed, manually of course, which would be preferable to adding and removing the pipe entirely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 06:16 pm:

I found a 3-4 mph increase in top speed with my '26 touring with the air pipe removed on a warm summer day. This engine has a Z head, reground cam and a bit oversize valves.

I use a hot air pipe on my speedster in the winter and replace it with the oil & foam air cleaner in summer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 06:39 pm:

The dyno testing conducted by Mike Bender shows that using a hot air pipe is similar to disconnecting one of the spark plug wires. It is a loss of 4 horsepower:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 12:09 pm:

Royce

That is only part of the answer

The temperature that the test was run at and the mixture setting is critical to the results

If it is really cold and the carb ices the answer could be that running without the hot air pipe is like disconnecting 4 spark plug wires.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 03:15 pm:

Fred,

I think we are in total agreement - if you are driving in a snowstorm or a very cold, very humid day, use the heat pipe and accept the power loss as a penalty worth taking.

Any other time, take it off for a 15% - 20% gain in power and economy.

I think this is the same thing I have been saying all along, but if you still need me to say it, then here you go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 03:54 pm:

Okay, Royce. You've convinced me. Here, in hot, sunny, Florida, it seems to be a no brainer. I'm removing my hot air pipe. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 03:58 pm:

Bill, where can I get one of those pipes with the sliding door?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Spainhower - Portland, Oregon on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 04:01 pm:

Ok, I may as well jump in here. Nothing like disagreeing with Royce to make the day interesting.

First off, the heat pipe is not like a water pump. Removing it is no solution. (Card-carrying engineers, please help me out here.) It's not about "I've never needed a heat pipe and my car runs fine". It's simple physics: you have to replace the heat lost during vaporization or the fuel will fall out of the vapor, form droplets, and not burn completely. That lowers both the power and the efficiency of the engine. It's called the latent heat of vaporization. You can deal with it, or ignore it, but it's a fact (and there's a formula for it).

The reason there are so many opinions about the Model T heat pipe is that it's unregulated. So yes: in some situations it helps combustion, in some situations it hurts. A regulated heat riser, which came along later, does a much better job of hitting the sweet-spot of keeping the fuel vaporized, but not overheating the air-fuel mixture, which reduces the amount of expansion upon combustion. That's it. Simple concept. Not so simple to achieve though, with the constantly changing variables of load, temperature, and humidity.

Modern cars don't use a mechanical heat riser, but they still require manifold heat. It comes from the coolant channels that travel through the intake manifold, which is regulated by the much greater specific heat of the liquid coolant and (uh-oh)...the thermostat.

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw a long time ago, "The speed of light: It's not just a good idea, it's the law." So, use a heat pipe or don't, or change it with the seasons. Doesn't matter to me. Just be aware that to achieve a proper, fully vaporized mixture REQUIRES heat. It's the "how much" that brings this topic up time and time again. That said, Rob's driver adjusted solution is the winner, with Bill's easy-adjuster coming in second. Taking the heat pipe off and leaving it off is no solution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 05:11 pm:

Bruce - Just so you don't feel like "the lone ranger" from the Pacific Northwest, I'll throw a little something else in here just to help you "muddy the water" just a bit more:

Your mention of modern engines with channels thru' the intake manifold for hot coolant to add heat makes me think of something else that might be worth considering. I think that one of the combination intake/exhaust manifolds would do much the same. I run a Wilmo combination manifold on my '27 depot hack (with no heat pipe) with great success and come to think of it, I believe that Royce has an ANCO combination manifold on one of his "T's that he has said is very successful. I have to believe that combination manifolds, and there are many different makes besides the Wilmo and Anco, but being all one big heavy casting, the hot exhaust portion of the manifold must radiate some of the heat into the intake portion to afford some degree of benefit to economy and performance. FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 05:19 pm:

Also, as long as I'm probably stiring things up a bit, come to think of it, the Model A Ford design includes the intake manifold being cast with a flat surface that is bolted to the corresponding flat surface of the exhaust manifold. I have to believe that this design has at least something to do with heat transfer from exhaust manifold to intake manifold, as the Model A was never equipped with any kind of heat pipe to warm the intake. Not exactly what we're talking about here, but more "food for thought",....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 05:41 pm:

Someone was considering vaporization in different seasons/temperatures long ago. Below is pictured a Simmons Vaporizer from my collection that has a three pronged lever that is adjustable from the drivers seat. The Simmons brass tag above the lever has on one end in small lettering "Half Surface Summer" and on the other end "Full Surface Winter". I personally have never seen another "hot plate" vaporizer with this option.
Simmons Vaporizer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

Bruce,

Your analysis takes no notice of Ford's recommendation or the dynamometer testing proving that Ford is correct. Nothing that you have said can be backed up by fact.

Results speak for them selves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 06:37 pm:

A little more science here...
The fuel has a thing called vapor pressure. Every liquid has a vapor pressure and it is the pressure at which the liquid will vaporize. The process of turning water into steam is a good example. you can have water at boiling point and you can have seam at boiling point but to pass from steam to water or water to steam you have to add or remove the latent heat of vaporization / condensation.
Fuel, with a vapor pressure slightly below atmospheric pressure, is vaporized because the pressure drop of going through the venturi, where velocity increases and pressure decreases. The pressure drops just below the vapor pressure of the fuel and it turns to vapor. As long as the vacuum does not change in the intake tube the fuel remains vaporized. Changes in temperature have little effect because the fuel / air mixture is moving too fast for much heat exchange to happen with the walls of the intake system. Any pressure drop upstream of the venturi will increase the fuel in the mixture and a rich mixture will rob power and reduce temperatures in the engine. All his is considered by the modern computers that are used in cars today while we are reduced to monkey status trying to do these adjustments manually. We have all found that "fiddling" with the mixture, spark advance, spark plug gaps, and throttle, ( the few controls we have ), we can get the car to run better, until conditions change and then we have to start all over again. But just think how bored our rides would be if we did not have to "fiddle" with things and impress our riders, who are still confused with the pedals...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Spainhower - Portland, Oregon on Friday, April 08, 2016 - 06:52 pm:

Royce - thermodynamics is not subjective.

Harold - Yes, the Model A system is all about replacing the heat lost to phase change, but it too, is unregulated. Most of us have seen the next step, where the heat riser is a bi-metal spring with a counterweight that regulates the amount of heat fed from the exhaust manifold to the intake manifold. This one's from a later Ford V8:



My point in this discussion is that, regardless of what you "believe" (Royce), the variables that determine the amount of manifold heat required are constantly changing as you drive, but that amount is always above zero. The heat riser is just an intermediate step. In today's cars, the oxygen sensor in the exhaust stream can detect when the mixture is not fully burned, and feeds a correction back to the fuel injector(s). No such technology in a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 08:36 am:

Bruce,

Your opinion has little to do with the facts at hand. I respect your right to speak your mind, but the facts are what they are - completely different than what you stated. You are using words that sound like science if one suspends all logic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 09:41 am:

I'm not convinced the heat pipe is necessary to vaporize modern day fuels as it was in the past. But it does help to keep my car looking "period" and maybe it keeps some of the road dust and grit out of the engine. So, I'm leaving it on. Does it cost me a lot of horsepower? Heck, I don't know. The engine doesn't exactly do "burn-outs" to start with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 10:44 am:

It seems ludicrous that we would continue using a device that reduces horsepower and performance only because it might prevent road dust from being sucked into the carb. Have the modern day Model T inventors yet come up with a decent air filter to do this and, if so, can someone post a critique and a picture of it installed? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 11:22 am:

Royce:

Your speculation that the consequence of using a heat pipe or not is the same for all situations without regard to ambient temperature and relative humidity reminds me of a fellow standing on the beach in Hawaii in January phoning a fellow standing on the beach in Maine to advise him that no wet suit is needed to go for a comfortable swim in the ocean. And the fellow in Hawaii knows for certain that his advice is spot on because he proved it to be so by going for a swim only moments before he placed the call to the fellow in Maine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 12:13 pm:

Jim, I have had this filter on my 19 Touring for years and like the fact that it is spring loaded against the side of the hogs head so it can be removed in mere seconds. For my money I think it is crazy to have a T engine rebuilt and not have some kind of air filter installed. Even my cheap push mower came with a air filter and I do a lot of dusty roads with my cars so for me it works just fine. Have one on my Model A also though the filter is much larger.....
Modl T Filter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 01:19 pm:

Michael. Nice. That is what I had in mind. Where did you get it? Will it fit an NH?

While I appreciate and am highly impressed with all of the engineering specs regarding aircraft engines operating at frigid, high altitudes and fuel vaporization icing properties, let's get real. I don't see what advanced aircraft research has to do with us, operating our simple Model T's at warmer ground level. We are dealing with the Model T that, in its' day had an army of thousands of Ford engineers working on it for 20 years and documenting the results of their research in millions of reports and publications with the goal of making sure it operated with maximum efficiency for its' day. That is pretty good for what basically amounts to a 4 cylinder lawn mower engine. Royce has been involved with T's for his entire life since he was a little kid and his father and grandfather before him and I trust his advice, as it is based on lifetimes of experience and advice, dedication to the Model T and results gleaned from experience, not statistics. He figures it out the hard way and we benefit from his discoveries. Some of you may not like it, but, in my experience of listening to Royce over the years, that is a fact I can count on and cannot be found in any book. Respectfully submitted. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 02:30 pm:

Tim Kelly,

Apparently you have not read what I said. I said above in several posts that there might be a time when it was very humid and very cold when you or I would accept the loss in power and install a heat pipe. I also posted photos of the Ford manual which states exactly the same advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 04:50 pm:

Royce:

Your note to me suggesting that I have not read your posts is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

While you might find it hard to believe, which I dare say is not a new phenomenon, I have indeed read your posts regarding this matter.

You state unequivocally that the only time a hot air pipe is useful is when it is very humid and cold. You also state that in any other instance the hot air pipe robs power and hurts economy.

Unfortunately, your pronouncement that a hot air pipe is only useful in cold humid weather, and is hurtful in all other instances, is mistaken.

It's not only possible, but probable to suffer the ill affects of carburetor freezing when ambient temperatures are in the 90s, with high humidity, and the car is running under a heavy load for an extended period of time. The carburetor freezes due to the high volume of liquid being compressed as it is driven through a small opening and then cools dramatically as it expands rapidly. At some point, if the conditions persist long enough, the freezing becomes significant enough to trigger losing 100% of the power.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 05:21 pm:

Tim,

I agree, the hot air pipe is only needed in the presence of a combination of extreme humidity and cold weather. I agree with the Ford manual too.

And you are right, I do say that under any circumstance the hot air pipe is going to yield a large penalty in both horsepower and mileage. It's a fact.

What you are saying in your last paragraph is simply not plausible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

Is it advantageous to abandon the hot air pipe in favor of the car not running at all?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 05:37 pm:

Jim Patrick, I sent you a PM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 05:54 pm:

LOL Walter, I carried a hot air pipe under the seat of each Model T that I own for years in the mind set that some day there would be a use for it. I never have come across that day. Snowstorms, rain, fog, high altitude - you name the weather condition - never needed one.

My first T was my '15, and after spending a couple years assembling it into a running driving car, I had the hot air pipe on because hey, that's the way Ford made it right? One day I read what Ford had to say in the manual. I took it off, and was fairly shocked at how much better the car ran.

Take yours off and find out what you have been missing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 06:07 pm:

Royce:

It's now clear.....

If you haven't experienced something, it's never happened.

Got it....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 06:18 pm:

I have seen a T carb frost up while not running the pipe. It was in the middle of July, around 95 degrees and very high humidity. Now, that being said, would it have iced enough to stop functioning? I don't know, this was on a short run of about 8 or 10 miles, flat ground, easy running at part throttle. This was in NW MO. Guess I should have taken a picture. This was on my late buddy's '23 roadster about 10 years ago. FWIW. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 06:24 pm:

I'm just having trouble getting my head wrapped around the notion that there are circumstances under which the pipe is needed while at the same time arguing there is going to be a large penalty for using it.

It seems akin to saying you aren't going to touch the principal on an investment that yields 2% when you could use part of said principal to pay off a credit card that is costing you 20% to service the debt.

(Message edited by WMH on April 09, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 07:29 pm:

I still think that "back in the day", one or more conversations between Henry and one or more of his engineers might have sounded something like this:

"You know, if we don't put the heat pipe on these cars we're building, there will probably a very few very rare cases where enough ice might form in the carburetor or intake to cause poor running, and we'll hear about those few cases forever and receive bad publicity, but, if we put the heat pipes on all the new cars, even if there is a slight loss of power and a slight decrease in fuel economy, nobody will ever know the difference so let's just put 'em on and forget about it."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 07:36 pm:

^ Because preheated air to an engine carries less oxygen.
Colder air = More heavily oxygenated
That's the reason for intercoolers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, April 09, 2016 - 09:27 pm:

While we're on the subject, does this look like a T unit, and if it does, what the heck is the little adjustment knob on the bottom?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 06:17 am:

A lot of these ''heater style '' manifolds were sold in Australia.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 01:18 pm:

Update - I received my "period looking" air cleaner in the mail yesterday. It was originally made for an old Clinton lawn tractor.

Today I painted the air cleaner black and made an adapter cone out of 0.010" sheet brass, soldering the ends together.

The white thing on the end of the air cleaner housing is a card stock mockup of a support strap. I'll make the strap from 0.032" brass strap and use it to hang the end of the air cleaner from the rear-most manifold stud.

pic1

pic2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 01:22 pm:

Mark,
Looks great.

How soon will production begin?

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 01:26 pm:

LOL, thanks for the compliment, but I'm a one-off kind of guy, no production, sorry.

However, there may be more Clinton air cleaners out there to be had, try a Google search. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 02:22 pm:

Mark, if you twist the card stock the other way you can get away with one bend, just my opinion.

So does that setup fit alright within the T engine compartment? I see a nut on the end, I assume there is a stud inside?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 03:15 pm:

Thanks, Chad, I'll try a simpler twist on the brass hanger once I get the brass strip.

According to my measurements it all should fit. It may be a week or so before I install it. I'll post a picture of it once it is installed.

I suspect that for the original application, the air cleaner was held down with a long, threaded stud with a wing nut. I put a short bolt in the hole from the inside and a rubber grommet and nut on the outside so that I would have a place to attach the hanger strip. I'll attach the strip with a lockwasher and another nut so that the bolt can't back out and get sucked into the carburetor.

By the way, I checked Ebay and there are a few more Clinton air cleaners for sale there. :-)



(Message edited by cudaman on April 10, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, April 10, 2016 - 03:54 pm:

John Noonan..... Have the exact accessory hot air pipes on the '26.... but, minus the spring loaded valve innards.... no problems & looks nicer than stock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 12:54 am:

Interesting thread!
One small engine manufacturer says 45 degrees is the point to change between warm and regular air for the carb and those smallish engines run like crap (in cool-cold weather) without a warm air system.
I'll try it with my T this year. Changing over for warm weather, that is.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 02:06 am:

Mark, are the elements for those air cleaners still available, or is there a more modern equivalent available? Nice looking setup, way better looking than the modern ones that are available now. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 09:30 am:

This particular air cleaner housing is swaged together into one piece. I guess when the filter is clogged up, you're supposed to buy the whole unit. Since I only put a little less than 1000 miles a year on my T, and I plan to replace this filter with the stock hot air pipe in the winter, it will be a long time before this filter needs to be replaced. :-)

There may be other, similar units with replaceable elements available on Ebay or Google with a little searching.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 09:46 am:

It looks like a nice piece of work Mark. Question, is the Clinton engine 20 or more horsepower, and is it 200 or more cubic inches? IF the answers to these questions are "Yes" then it ought to work OK.

The T part vendors sell a sock type motorcycle air cleaner that is designed for use on 8 HP / 125 CC motorcycles. Needless to say it is not a great performer on a 20 horsepower / 2884 CC Model T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 09:50 am:

Probably not, I'll just have to try it and see! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher McCulley on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 10:05 am:

Bernoulli's principle explains the carb throat/Venturi.

Also, carb icing occurs most often when there is less than a three point spread between the dew point and temperature. Regardless of the temperature.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, April 11, 2016 - 04:01 pm:

Ok, here are a couple of pics of my Clinton air filter mounted on my car. I had to make a second adapter cone 1/4 inch shorter than the first one to make it fit. The stud on the end of the air filter housing sits against the front surface of the hogshead.

I ran a bead of Ultra Black on both ends of the cone to seal it to the air cleaner housing and the end of the carburetor, so I'll need to give the beads plenty of time to cure before I take it out for a drive.

The large end of the cone is a tight fit into the air cleaner housing, but the small end of the cone just slips into the hot air pipe socket of the carb, so I'll have to check occasionally to make sure the cone hasn't popped off the carb inlet. In any case, the air filter can't go anywhere because it's held by the brass strap to the rear manifold stud.

pic1

pic2


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